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Paul Francis
24-09-2009, 08:39
At a guess this could be at Abingdon or Upper Heyford. A Fordson tractor and bomb trolleys plus onlookers. Photograph is not identified as to who took it.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/img471a.jpg

Peter Kirk
24-09-2009, 08:50
No markings on the the Whitley. Could be a posed pre-delivery shot?

Richard Drew
24-09-2009, 13:05
I know HMR & DMR are Wiltshire registrations not sure of HMT?

mawganmad
24-09-2009, 13:44
Surely the tractor would be wearing a military MT registration, or were these not issued back then?

Robin
24-09-2009, 15:42
What is the significance of the 7/5 disc on the tractor.

Robin.

mitrovitchp
24-09-2009, 16:06
What is the significance of the 7/5 disc on the tractor.

Robin.

I believe it is a bridge classification marking. Vehicles were marked with their max loaded weight so that it was known if it was safe to cross bridges, particularly temporary ones built by Engineers.
The disc was painted yellow with max tonnage in black. For vehicles with trailers (such as this) the top figure is the total weight of the whole vehicle, the lower figure is the weight of the tractor unit alone.

Richard Drew
24-09-2009, 17:35
It was probably requestioned at the start of the war as it has farm tyres on?

Paul Francis
24-09-2009, 17:55
Anyone know when the bomb trolly was invented? Stupid question but would this be some kind of pre-war demonstration of a bomb trolly / tractor combination using requistitioned tractors. The RAF roundal on the Whitley is I assume just pre-war (by a matter oif days perhaps or in use at the start of war)

Denis
24-09-2009, 18:20
Looks like a type 'B' bomb trolley Paul, introduced in 1937 as far as I am aware. Never heard of a type ' A' or seen any images of such.

A likely source of info would probably be in the following:
RAF Ground Support Equipment since 1918
F J Adkin
Airlife 1996
ISBN 1085310 562 7

edit* Just noticed the blackout covers on the headlights, that should narrow it down to 1940 perhaps?

mawganmad
24-09-2009, 18:59
Probably not much help, but that looks like a Whitley V from the fin shape, these weren't delivered until early 1939. Perhaps the censor has removed the two digit squadron codes. It is certainly in a very early war scheme for this mark, especially with those fin stripes.
10 OTU was at Abingdon, 10 & 51 squadron had them at Dishforth, and 77 & 102 were at Driffield at the time.

As for bomb trollies - a pure guess, but I'm thinking late 1920s / early '30s when larger bombs were coming into use and aircraft were beginning to have internal weapons bays. Heyfords were one of the first and their bay was very close to the ground required proper handling kit.

As for the weight sign, 5 tons seems a bit heavy for an old tractor, I'm wondering if it is 5 tons unladen weight of tractor AND trollies, 7 tons loaded?

WJT
24-09-2009, 19:39
Oh dear - such a wide-ranging subject. Taking the markings on the little Fordson tractor first. The yellow disc with the two numbers is indeed a bridge classification marking as applied to 'articulated' vehicles. The top number indicates what we would now term the gross train weight of the prime mover and its trailers (in this case 7 tons). The lower number indicates the weight of the prime mover alone (in this case 5 tons). I agree that a standard Fordson would be hard-pressed to gross 5 tons.

As for the bomb trolleys, Type B I think. This was designed by a Hungarian, Nicolas Straussler, and built by Alvis-Straussler at one of the Alvis shadow factories at Syston, Leics. I have a lot of gen on bomb trolleys and will try to string it together into something that would work on the Forum. My MS Word document is not appropriate for this format.

mitrovitchp
24-09-2009, 19:50
As for the weight sign, 5 tons seems a bit heavy for an old tractor, I'm wondering if it is 5 tons unladen weight of tractor AND trollies, 7 tons loaded?

Agree as it is a tiny tractor. I have just had a look at Bruce Robertson's 'Wheels of the RAF' and Bridge Classification Markings are explained on page 64 and 65. The top figure relates to the max laden weight of the tractor and trailer, the bottom figure to the max laden weight of the tractor alone.
According to Mr Robertson, Engineers and Pioneer Corps built their bridges in ton weight classifications in the range: 5, 9, 12, 18, 24 Etc...... These numbers were sign posted at the approach to each bridge.
I guess the tractor would be allowed on '5 ton' bridge and tractor and trailer on a '9 ton' bridge.

mawganmad
24-09-2009, 20:36
I have a lot of gen on bomb trolleys and will try to string it together into something that would work on the Forum.

Yes please!

ted angus
24-09-2009, 22:05
Gents it was april 1941 when RAF registrations in the form of RAF 1234etc were introduced; prior to that all RAF vehicles bore county council reg numbers. The majority were Middlesex county council issues obtained via the RAF depot at Uxbridge, HMT was a Middlesex reg. The 7 over 5 if thats what it is is not on the tractor I believe its a marking on the print; the bridge class of the Fordson was 2 to be marked on the front. That model of Fordson was the standard RAF airfield light tractor at the outbreak of war.

I also believe that photo predates the use of bridge classes ??

Paul Francis
24-09-2009, 22:16
I must admit I thought the numbering was on the print but not so sure now

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/75.jpg

ted angus
24-09-2009, 22:24
It certainly looks like a disc held onto the tractor with 2 rivets very strange I have a copy of the Air Ministry order and those tractors were bridge class 2. Will have a dig at Fordson piccies in my files and see what I come up with /

DG1
24-09-2009, 23:11
Is this sign afixed to the tractor or is it a speed sign fixed to a pole behind the tractor as it seems rather big to be a weight limit sign afixed to tractor.

Peter Kirk
24-09-2009, 23:13
I'd better not comment as my perspective is already a bit suspect :)

However the sign behind does make more sense as to be in fromt of the driver is a bit odd to say the least.

mawganmad
25-09-2009, 11:15
Thanks for your registration info Ted, very interesting.

I can't believe there is still arguments about the sign, The sign is fixed to the tractors headlamp (both are about 9" dia - look bigger due to perspective), and is to warn all on its weight limits. The diver would know the weights anyway, but his handling party and other around the vehicle wouldn't nescesarily.

Also airfields arn't meant to have signs and other obstructions stuck in them!

I'm convinced 5 (tons) is empty weight of tractor AND trollies combined, and 7 (tons) is tractor and trollies loaded combined. the two ton difference would seem about right for the bomb load.

DG1
25-09-2009, 11:21
Funny how you can look at a photo and not see the obvious. The rope on the headlight would not stay in that position if it was not looped around the bracket holding the sign.

PETERTHEEATER
26-09-2009, 06:17
Perhaps the rope is attaching the sign to the headlamp!

ted angus
30-09-2009, 22:48
In between PC, and broadband failures I revisited the relevant order; the subject tractor was definately class 2 and should not have carried a two tier bridge class sign. None of the various airfield tractors were allocated two tier classes. This was reserved for artic tractors, even dedicated towing prime movers such as the platform Matadors used by the ACB were only allocated single class numbers, the driver being required to ensure he only crossed bridges whose class exceeded the sum of his prime mover and trailer classes.
I think MAWGANMAD's theory of the 5 being the train unladen weight and the 7 being the laden weight is no doubt spot on and is the result of an overzealous MTO who failed to interpret the regs correctly and was obviously convinced that someone was going to build a bridge on his airfield !! checking the shots I have found of both Fordson and David Brown airfield tractors I cannot find another example bearing a bridge class plate.
regards TED

ted angus
02-10-2009, 12:34
And there's more: The piccy is IWM CH 674 taken at No 10 Operational Training Unit, RAF Abingdon, Berks 26 July 1940. I have reviewed dozens of period tractor piccies none show a bridge class marking. I will keep digging

mawganmad
02-10-2009, 15:14
And there's more: The piccy is IWM CH 674 taken at No 10 Operational Training Unit, RAF Abingdon, Berks 26 July 1940.

Excellent, so NP got the place right straight away!:-P

Paul Francis
02-10-2009, 15:50
Ops!! better remove it then, had no idea it was IWM. Na it can stay until we get told to remove it.

Airtrooper
07-04-2010, 22:54
I have a lot of gen on bomb trolleys and will try to string it together into something that would work on the Forum.

Oooh, yes please! I'm especially interested in dimensions and drawings for bomb trolleys.

I'm also starting to look for drawings of the Fordson N airfield tractor (and others)... does anyone have any pointers??

Many thanks

Andy

PETERTHEEATER
23-05-2010, 10:12
Some interesting pics here of tractors and bomb trains:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/25787-bomb-train-photo.html

WJT
08-07-2010, 22:26
Here is a pic of one of two lorries seen westbound on the A17 near Boston, taking S-Type bomb trolleys to the great bomb dump in the sky.


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll199/MandatorV8/STypetrolleysJun10AiX.jpg

PETERTHEEATER
09-07-2010, 08:40
The Type S was after my time but, like so many bomb trolleys could be used as a general purpose humper. Why are those being ditched? Taxpayer bought some new toys for the Typhoon?

tarkey
09-07-2010, 09:23
I don't know if its already been mentioned but Ken Wallis owner of Little Nellie designed a bomb trolley during WW2 which saved hours of time in loading up.

superplum
09-07-2010, 10:56
The Type S was after my time but, like so many bomb trolleys could be used as a general purpose humper. Why are those being ditched? Taxpayer bought some new toys for the Typhoon?

Who said they were being ditched? They may be on the road for deployment (or similar) purposes. One at the rear has the "sides" kit fitted which would be rather odd for junking it. However, with far fewer jets nowadays, there are less trolleys (and associated maintenance) needed.

ted angus
09-07-2010, 10:59
Westbound on A17 they could be ex Coningsby en route to Marham. ?? Most scrap GSE now goes to Withams and they are south of Grantham on the A1 Much the RAF's surplus kit is now at the Army stores depot at Stirling after the 16MU debacle. The place is overflowing but the RAF don't have the money or facilities to repair and refurbish. A mass of stuff has been brought to the paintshop at Leuchars but there is no money or manpower to get it serviceable before going through anti corrosive treatment and repaint. I think they are trying to round up all the surplus and get it in batches to the remaining units in the hope the lottery give them some money.
There would have been lots of Type S surplus when the jags went and a lot would have come back from the Gulf.

Just my take on the situation but of course could be wrong. I will ask my agent at Withams to keep a look out just in case !
TED

juddy
09-07-2010, 12:00
Regarding Tractors, did the raf use a ford type tractor with, a front loader fitted with folks, i seem to remember seeing a picture of one, but cant find any further info....

ted angus
09-07-2010, 14:03
during what period ?

TED

WJT
09-07-2010, 15:36
Ted: The trucks were westbound on the A17, just south of Boston. This suggests to me that they are outbound from Marham (or even Honington) and perhaps on their way to that firm at South Scarle, near Swinderby, which deals with airport ground equipment (will try and remember their details) or perhaps to Winchester Marine at Binbrook, or now Manby.

Winchester Marine had 50 or 60 S-Types up for sale by tender and then auction last year - I think they have all gone now, but they were very scabby. I have three myself, which I bought by tender from RAMCO at Croft, near Skegness. They came out of Bruggen and are in excellent nick - they cost 47.00 + VAT each! Two of them have the full nuke additions (drawbar brakes, lights etc) but they do not glow in the dark.

I suspect that the lorries were not heading for Witham SV - if so, I think they would have headed further south than the A17 if en-route from Marham.

ted angus
09-07-2010, 16:25
Its this bl**dy compass its reading upside down Mnn westbounds Yes outbound from MaRHAM OFF FOR A GREY MOMENT NAP !!
ted

John Cooper
09-07-2010, 21:15
I came across this David Brown at Rougham 2 weeks ago, I drove many of these illegally!

http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/47184/2677399220035970728S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2677399220035970728wRuAZM)

P Bellamy
09-07-2010, 21:55
Nice, I do like Air Ministry-spec VIGs, especially the ones with the winch and anchor at the back.

Something odd about the unit marking though, shouldn't it be B/5 (5 Gp. Bomber Command) for a vehicle allocated to 617 Sqn?
I guess I'll ask the owner next month. ;)

Edit: Sorry, ignore that.
5 Group was disbanded in 1945, a few years before the yellow over blue colour scheme was reinstated for RAF vehicles.

All the best,
PB

John Cooper
09-07-2010, 22:45
........and from the rear Paul

http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/47023/2345406450035970728S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2345406450035970728dfXWcs)

PETERTHEEATER
10-07-2010, 07:43
Who said they were being ditched? They may be on the road for deployment (or similar) purposes. One at the rear has the "sides" kit fitted which would be rather odd for junking it. However, with far fewer jets nowadays, there are less trolleys (and associated maintenance) needed.

WJT wrote (above) taking S-Type bomb trolleys to the great bomb dump in the sky. that's why I assumed they had been sold off.

WJT
10-07-2010, 19:13
I still think the S-Types were on their way out. Hutchinsons are often seen taking ex-MOD stuff into a scrapyard off Tritton Road in Lincoln.

WJT
10-07-2010, 19:17
I think the shade of blue used on the tractor photographed by John is wrong for an RAF livery. The RAF blue/grey was much darker and greyer than the colour depicted. I in no way wish to detract from the restoration carried out on the tractor, which is excellent. Judging by the shape of the chassis extension just at the bottom of the grille this is a post-war (ealy 1950s) vehicle and not a wartime example.

juddy
11-07-2010, 08:16
during what period ?

TED

I think it was maybe a 3000/4000 series, ford, so late 70s/early 80s?

WJT
23-08-2010, 22:28
One for Plumbers. Is this a bomb trolley? If so, what Mark? Was it used for a Nuke? Photo taken at Duxford in May 2003.


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll199/MandatorV8/Duxford11May03aix.jpg


On reflection, perhaps its just an engine stand?

superplum
25-08-2010, 19:34
One for Plumbers. Is this a bomb trolley? If so, what Mark? Was it used for a Nuke? Photo taken at Duxford in May 2003.

On reflection, perhaps its just an engine stand?

I think you reflect correct. It's certainly not for NW or conventional wpns. It may just have other junk stored on it to confuse us.

Richard Flagg
30-08-2010, 10:11
Some at Lakenheath

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/Lakenheath/20100826Lakenheath107-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/Lakenheath/20100826Lakenheath110-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/Lakenheath/20100826Lakenheath113-1.jpg

PETERTHEEATER
09-10-2010, 09:36
Despite the caption, this looks like a Type C Bomb Trolley to me. Do I spy TracJacks in the background?

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1703434

ted angus
09-10-2010, 11:16
Despite the caption, this looks like a Type C Bomb Trolley to me. Do I spy TracJacks in the background?

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1703434

Saw a similar picture elsewhere of the IoM items looks like the full ensemble of tracked recovery trollies

TED

paf1950
11-10-2010, 20:23
Juddy, we had a Massey Ferguson rough terrain forklift at Salt Lake Akrotiri early 80s. Could that be what you are referring to? Sorry no pics.

mawganmad
11-10-2010, 20:50
Re all those trolleys on that truck, they won't be scrapped where ever they are heading, you wouldn't believe the market for these things even when demobbed.

This has surely got to be the classic RAF post-war bomb trolley!

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pagen/Airfield%20Vehicles/bt2.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pagen/Airfield%20Vehicles/bt1.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pagen/Airfield%20Vehicles/bt3.jpg

mawganmad
11-10-2010, 21:28
Here's one good use for old bomb trollys, a before and after from the painters and finishers dept of 4 SoTT

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pagen/Airfield%20Vehicles/bt4.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pagen/Airfield%20Vehicles/bt5.jpg

PETERTHEEATER
12-10-2010, 06:36
That is a Type 'F' Bomb Trolley; strong, simple and adaptable. No suspension at all, plain bearings which need regular pressure lube with oil but virtually indestructible. A trusted standby in my experience whereby the user section can modify it easily to a general purpose flat-top carrier using thick plywood sheets or to other purposes for which it was not intended by installing simple home-made formers (e.g) carrying drop tanks. The only limitation is that it must be used on hard flat surfaces due to minimal ground clearance and weight.

Richard Flagg
12-10-2010, 09:08
I love the Hawk / Jaguar composite - looks a bit odd but rather fun!

mawganmad
12-10-2010, 09:34
That is a Type 'F' Bomb Trolley. The only limitation is that it must be used on hard flat surfaces due to minimal ground clearance and weight.

Yes thought about one for my projects but discounted for both these reasons, like you say though a classic trusty bit of kit. Great to have it identified aswel, is there a list of the bomb trolleys used?
At St Mawgan there used to be a train to take kids and lazy souls around the airshow line-up, the carriages were made from these trollies with a standard tug dressed up as a steam locco!


I love the Hawk / Jaguar composite - looks a bit odd but rather fun!

It does, notice on the side that it is named a 'Jawk Mk1'!
It has gone now, but nobody seems to know where, and before you say it, I don't have it!

mitrovitchp
12-10-2010, 09:45
At St Mawgan there used to be a train to take kids and lazy souls around the airshow line-up, the carriages were made from these trollies with a standard tug dressed up as a steam locco!

Ahhhh - I remember that! There was even a 'Station' for it to stop at.

Richard Flagg
12-10-2010, 10:57
It does, notice on the side that it is named a 'Jawk Mk1'!
It has gone now, but nobody seems to know where, and before you say it, I don't have it!

Are you sure - you have probably got a squadron of cockpits by now haven't you!!!!

ianbache
30-12-2010, 20:41
Ive gone through the thread but didnt come across one of these any ideas, no idea of date or airfield, no doubt the Detectives amongst the members will know???

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii425/LLanbedr/bombingup.jpg

airfields man
30-12-2010, 21:50
Westland Whirlwind aircraft. One of my favorites.

WJT
30-12-2010, 22:13
Bomb trolley Type A?

ianbache
30-12-2010, 23:11
Westland Whirlwind aircraft. One of my favorites.

Hi mate
any idea where though, beside the Mosquito its also mine, smart aircraft!!

airfields man
31-12-2010, 00:26
Sorry, no real idea. That tractor is in the way of any possible identification. Could be Charmy Down, 137 Squadron. I've often thought that the ME 262 had a familiar look to this aircraft with it's high canopy and low-slung engines. I think it's a superb looking aircraft. [Whirlwind]

ted angus
31-12-2010, 01:04
Ive gone through the thread but didnt come across one of these any ideas, no idea of date or airfield, no doubt the Detectives amongst the members will know???

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii425/LLanbedr/bombingup.jpg

The Tractor is a Fordson, the crane possibly a locally produced hydraulic loader. it is 137 sqn, Manston, 5 March 1943 one of a series on Flightglobal.
TED

airfields man
31-12-2010, 13:13
Many thanks for that information Ted. Happy new year :grin:

DG1
01-01-2011, 21:01
Better looking Fordson here, http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/25787-bomb-train-photo.html
Better looking driver as well.

airfields man
04-01-2011, 19:21
Superb photograph there DG1. Thanks for showing it. :grin:

George McKenzie
04-01-2011, 22:07
36283629
Yes please!

This is my 1942 RCAF Fordson that worked with the Lancasters and Halifaxes during the war I am looking for information to get a trolley for it .to haul four bombs .This is the original color .also it never had a cab .It has a very hi speed gear in it to get off the runway George ps I live in western Canada and have 15 ww2 vehicles .I bought this at a sale 4 years ago only knowing that it was in the RCAF .I have not heard of another one like it but nodoubt there is some .A fellow brought this to Canada after the war and is still very original condition .

Selwyn
08-01-2011, 23:24
One for Plumbers. Is this a bomb trolley? If so, what Mark? Was it used for a Nuke? Photo taken at Duxford in May 2003.


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll199/MandatorV8/Duxford11May03aix.jpg


On reflection, perhaps its just an engine stand?

That gentlemen is a Type K Mk 4 weapons trolley! used for the Transportation of US B57 Nuclear bombs used As depth charges by the Nimrod fleet.


Selwyn

Selwyn
08-01-2011, 23:38
Its not a Bridge Classification Sign (BCS)!

BCS were introduced in 1941 along with the RAF roundel and Command/Group signs on RAF vehicles.this picture predates the introduction by at least a year.
BCS were meant for Tactical vehicles in a battle environment when crossing temporary military bridges, so airfield vehicles would not display them as it was unlikely that they would ever stray from their base.
Also the format was for display on tractor units towing semi trailers or prime movers towing trailers. one number defined the weight limit the Tractor one for the Trailer so as displayed the sign would be illegal anyway as the tractor is towing two trailers!

I have never seen any other RAF tractor of the WW2 Period displaying a BCS.

I think it is probably a item of local signage used on that particular station for a long forgotten reason.

Selwyn

ted angus
09-01-2011, 01:32
Its not a Bridge Classification Sign (BCS)!

BCS were introduced in 1941 along with the RAF roundel and Command/Group signs on RAF vehicles.this picture predates the introduction by at least a year.
BCS were meant for Tactical vehicles in a battle environment when crossing temporary military bridges, so airfield vehicles would not display them as it was unlikely that they would ever stray from their base.
Also the format was for display on tractor units towing semi trailers or prime movers towing trailers. one number defined the weight limit the Tractor one for the Trailer so as displayed the sign would be illegal anyway as the tractor is towing two trailers!

I have never seen any other RAF tractor of the WW2 Period displaying a BCS.

I think it is probably a item of local signage used on that particular station for a long forgotten reason.

Selwyn

Hi Selwyn, your definition of the reason for BCS is far from correct : AP 3090 stated ALL MT vehicles, will carry its bridge classification. It lists every major type including trailers and construction plant,including types that would never leave an airfield site. During the period in question MT was MT: our only true tactical assetts were the armoured cars and armoured tenders operating in Iraq and the N.W. Frontier region . Secondly, in Europe every bridge was classified not just temp military structures; indeed to this day all bridges in Germany carry their bridge class.
I too previously thought BCS were introduced in 1941 as we moved our markings and registrations onto a more " military" footing, but since this thread started, I have made a conscious effort to note BCS whilst delving into archives etc. My conclusion is that MT belonging to all units earmarked for the "Air Component Field Force" were marked up for possible use on the continent. This would be from spring 1939; If you delve -(especially on Pathe)- you will see lots of evidence of BCS on all manner of MT including airfield tractors in both UK & France prior to May 1940. Attached an RAF Albion in France october 1939.

TED

WJT
09-01-2011, 06:07
Hi Selwyn: Welcome to the madhouse and thanks for the ident of the Bomb trolley at Duxford. Does the designation Type K put it in the normal UK series (Type F, Type S, Type Z etc) or is that a US designation? I would have thought that we would have bought/the Yanks would have insisted on off-the-shelf handling equipment with any munitions buy of that nature.

Selwyn
09-01-2011, 15:41
Hi Selwyn: Welcome to the madhouse and thanks for the ident of the Bomb trolley at Duxford. Does the designation Type K put it in the normal UK series (Type F, Type S, Type Z etc) or is that a US designation? I would have thought that we would have bought/the Yanks would have insisted on off-the-shelf handling equipment with any munitions buy of that nature.

The Type K was a UK bomb trolley, in the normal UK series. The UK did not own any US B57 weapons, if I understand correctly the B57 was to be allocated to NATO in wartime and the principle was that all NATO MR Aircraft could use this weapon and they were prepositioned at NATO bases all around the N Atlantic. That meant that any NATO MR Aircraft operating in that area could obtain a reload wherever it landed during Wartime Ops.

Selwyn.

Selwyn
09-01-2011, 16:02
I understand what you are saying Ted but the sign is Illogical!

The BCS shows what class of bridge the prime mover is allowed to use on its own or when towing a FULLY LOADED (to its weight limit) trailer.
but a Airfield tractor does not tow just ONE trailer, it can tow multiples of trailers ( Bomb trolleys) therefore it would not be possible to determine what the towed value on the BCS plate was as it constantly changing. If the BCS had just the Tractor value on it I could possibly agree with you.
Airfield tractors and bomb trolleys would be delivered to an airfield on the back of a truck, it would take an age to drive one to a deployed location. When is the last time you saw a Bomb Train or towing tractor in wartime pictures, loaded or unloaded on a "public" road?
Can you show me a picture of any other wartime tractor with a bridge plate?


Selwyn

ted angus
09-01-2011, 17:00
The conclusion I draw is the 2nd figue is the max it should tow. does it make sense ? no not really ; but much of what went on doesn't make sense in this day and age, just as things we did when I joined in 64 made no sense to my sons when they joined in 88 and 90. Go into Pathe and do a search for RAF in France go into preview stills and change to 1 frame per second you will see much more that way./ Also look at IWM online several pics of similar Fordsons with bridge plates and not on the same aerodromes. re taking stuff to deployed locations on a truck, only partly correct. Much of the stuff was taken by rail from the continental port to the nearest station to the airfield. In those days tractors didn't moved much slower than the period Crossley and Albions most of which towed a 3 ton 2 axle trailer. I doubt they had anything like the establishment of bomb trolleys with the AASF as they did on home stations, and no doubt those they did have would have been piggybacked. However the tractor could have been towing a grass roller or one of the many other trailers the FF used i.e. Ops, Cooking. darkroom to name just 3.
When i joined in 64, many of my NCOs were guys who had been in since WW2, indeed I worked with a lad at Akrotiri who had been taken POW at Changi. Talking to them It was difficult to comprehend just how slowly things were done back then one of the major factors in our inability to cope with the German's Blitzkrieg.
Attached another airfield tractor with BCS

TED

Selwyn
11-01-2011, 16:06
Sorry Ted, not convinced!"

Same type of tractor but The "BCS" displayed on that tractor is different to the first!

Very strange.

Selwyn

ted angus
11-01-2011, 17:15
Yes Strange indeed which is, and always has been my thought since the original piccy was posted. However it remains beyond doubt that your initial statement re the intro date for BCS to the RAF and its application was off course. Much evidence that it started with vehicles earmarked for the Field force Air Component and The RAF policy was All MT vehicles would carry a BCS, not just tactical. Furthermore all bridges in the likely battle area or the L of C from the railheads, ports etc were clasified not just temp mil structures.
Even stranger- the class displayed on all the photos I have seen of the Fordson is different to that in AP 3090 for the vehicle. This was 2 as was the DB .
TED

George McKenzie
14-01-2011, 19:35
My tractor didn't have a bridge sign on it when I got it but there is a place above the rear view mirror bolt for one . I have a picture of a Fordson N with a sign 7/2 on it .2 for the tractor and 7 for the total load . Alot of my other military vehicles that have added weight put on them have the two numbers on the BCS . The picture I posted of my Fordson N .This tracor will go over 30 mles an hour but with a load of bombs behind you would need a smooth road so that is why there isn't pictures of them on public roads .The tractor also has a Government license plate on the left side behind the head light about 3' in diamiter

ted angus
14-01-2011, 20:39
Hi George what year is yours ?? pre April 1941 all RAF MT was registered with a County council and carried a civvy reg, they also carried a tax disc which would account or your holder if it was later than mid 41 the holder may have been fitted by a previous owner ?? Regards TED

George McKenzie
14-01-2011, 21:56
3700 Fordson hauling fuel note the bridge sign Mine is 1942 # 915050

Selwyn
15-01-2011, 23:09
Gents,
Been thinking about this.

It appears that the tractors used in France 1939-40,had them.

But the question is why do some tractors after this in UK have BCS signs and others not?

Could it be be because of the rapid airfield building programme in UK? A lot of these new Airfields had Bomb stores dispersed away from the bases, and to get Bombs from and to the airfield might well have involved using existing public roads. Reinforcing bridges etc on these routes would be desirable as they would probably be used by vehicles delivering Bombs to the stores as well as the Bomb trains going to the airfields. These bridges would no doubt be marked with bridge numbers as they would be used regularly by the Military, hence BCS on the tractors. More permanent pre war airfields would mor likely have bomb stores "on site" therfore tractors used there would not require BCS.

Comments?

Selwyn

mawganmad
15-01-2011, 23:19
Surely would be easier if most tractors had them, irrespective of where they are stationed, especially if there was a chance of them being moved in what were very turbulent times.
The BCS plate numbers make perfect sense to me, irrespective of how many trailers could be towed there would still be a maximum safe weight which it could pull.

ted angus
16-01-2011, 00:00
Gents,
Been thinking about this.

It appears that the tractors used in France 1939-40,had them.

But the question is why do some tractors after this in UK have BCS signs and others not?

Could it be be because of the rapid airfield building programme in UK? A lot of these new Airfields had Bomb stores dispersed away from the bases, and to get Bombs from and to the airfield might well have involved using existing public roads. Reinforcing bridges etc on these routes would be desirable as they would probably be used by vehicles delivering Bombs to the stores as well as the Bomb trains going to the airfields. These bridges would no doubt be marked with bridge numbers as they would be used regularly by the Military, hence BCS on the tractors. More permanent pre war airfields would mor likely have bomb stores "on site" therfore tractors used there would not require BCS.

Comments?

Selwyn

Selwyn, I think the question should be ; why did some vehicles carry BCS and others didn't this goes way beyond tractors. The lack of compliance is not restricted to WW2. During the 1970s and 80s virtually every vehicle on an RAF Germany station could have ended up on public roads had things got really hot. From those supporting MOS operations on autobahns etc, to the coaches in the ambulance role and those evacuating dependants moving to the railheads, airheads and channel ports. The trucks shifting munitions from the likes of Bracht to the RAF airfields the list is endless all should have been marked with bridge class many were not.
So I don't think the tractor example is isolated, its more like it jumped out and we all started head scratching, If you look at both RAF and Army stuff with the BEF etc much of it was without BCS; there are rules and regulations ; did we always abide by them ?? I won't answer in case I incriminate myself !!! Attached a vehicle of 412 Sqn of 83 group. A truely tactical sqn always on the move . The picture was taken during the short transition period whilst 2TAF was being formed in 1943, hence the rarely seen F/83 marking of interest the blank BCS plate ?
TED

George McKenzie
31-01-2011, 00:04
I am looking for bomb trolley for my Fordson tractor to pull at shows .Living in Canada I have never seen a trolley .Can anyone get me information as to one ,and what type of trailer it would be? Also pictures or plans for making one .The Lancaster goes around Canada and I would like to take it to one of there shows when they come around .Thanks for any help George

PETERTHEEATER
31-01-2011, 07:25
George, there were a number of different Types of bomb trolley in use with the RAF during WW2. They were identified by a Type letter starting (presumably) at 'A'. You might be able to track down a 'C' or an 'F' in Canada but anything earlier is unlikley.

Take a look at Post # 50 in this thread for the Type 'F'. A Type 'C' was similar but had parking brakes on the front wheels operated by the weight of the tow arm when it was fully up of down.

juddy
01-02-2011, 10:29
Regarding Tractors, did the raf use a ford type tractor with, a front loader fitted with folks, i seem to remember seeing a picture of one, but cant find any further info....

I have found a older pic of a RAF tractor however its not a Ford its a Massey Ferguson, will scan and later....

superplum
02-02-2011, 09:45
I have found a older pic of a RAF tractor however its not a Ford its a Massey Ferguson, will scan and later....

Massey Ferguson RTFL (Rough Terrain Forklift) used c mid 70s to mid 80s. I remember having to drive one (in the rain) from Coltishall to Norwich Rail Goods Yard (11 miles) to unload pallets of practice bombs because the RAF couldn't afford to pay to have the load transferred.

juddy
02-02-2011, 23:41
Massey Ferguson RTFL (Rough Terrain Forklift) used c mid 70s to mid 80s. I remember having to drive one (in the rain) from Coltishall to Norwich Rail Goods Yard (11 miles) to unload pallets of practice bombs because the RAF couldn't afford to pay to have the load transferred.

YES thats the one...... wonder where thet all went.... it was really a tractor with heavy duty loader and folks.....

juddy
07-02-2011, 11:41
http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/bits%20and%20bobs/P2060135.jpg
http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/bits%20and%20bobs/P2060133.jpg

and here it is....

paf1950
08-02-2011, 00:42
We had a set of these MF forks at Akrotiri Salt Lake aerial farm in 1983. Somewhere in the "archive" I still have the approval from STC for us to use a modified cage pallet for the riggers to work in out on the farm.

spike7451
20-02-2011, 18:38
That gentlemen is a Type K Mk 4 weapons trolley! used for the Transportation of US B57 Nuclear bombs used As depth charges by the Nimrod fleet.


Selwyn

Beat me to it mate!! Fancy seeing you here...lol

spike7451
20-02-2011, 18:41
Re all those trolleys on that truck, they won't be scrapped where ever they are heading, you wouldn't believe the market for these things even when demobbed.

This has surely got to be the classic RAF post-war bomb trolley!

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pagen/Airfield%20Vehicles/bt2.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pagen/Airfield%20Vehicles/bt1.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pagen/Airfield%20Vehicles/bt3.jpg

These were still used on Nimrods,I spent a spell in AGSE (Armament Ground Support Equipment) at Kinloss working on them before moving to the line.

WJT
24-02-2011, 14:54
OK, so what the do the bomb trolley sleuths make of this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WW2-RAF-AIRCRAFT-BOMB-TRAILER-/190504224539?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item2c5aefc71b

mawganmad
24-02-2011, 21:27
I think someone is trying to pull a fast one, it's a post-war chassis that was used for various ground equipment types from generators to small towed fuel bowsers, they vary slightly in lengths etc dependant on use.
In fact some are still in use where I work, mainly for training now though!
Good for putting a cockpit on when restored though.

PETERTHEEATER
25-02-2011, 07:26
I go along with mawganmad's view. It's too flimsy to be a bomb trolley. Real bomb trolleys endure not rot away like that.

ted angus
25-02-2011, 13:53
I think someone is trying to pull a fast one, it's a post-war chassis that was used for various ground equipment types from generators to small towed fuel bowsers, they vary slightly in lengths etc dependant on use.
In fact some are still in use where I work, mainly for training now though!
Good for putting a cockpit on when restored though.

Its got the same wheel rims as 25 KVA, 60KVA & 35KW GPUs; The MK 7 cooler hads the same wheels but had 2 rear axles
Its length is akin to a 25 KVA but I think the business end of the tow bar has been butchered somewhat.
So I greee with Mawganmad & Peter !!
TED

PETERTHEEATER
26-02-2011, 06:33
I just looked again at the pictures and now see that it has turntable steering not Ackerman. Useful for rolling over when loaded if the turn radius is too tight!

Carnaby
26-02-2011, 12:12
I think someone is trying to pull a fast one...
I communicated our findings to the vendor two days ago - nothing has changed and the listing states: No questions or answers have been posted about this item.

PETERTHEEATER
27-02-2011, 08:19
Sounds about right for a 'bona fide' E-Bay vendor:)

Paul Francis
12-04-2011, 15:47
Was not sure where to post this, either under RAF tractors or bomb trolleys. Anyway bomb trolleys it is. Queens Coronation bomb trolley train (I mean Childs train) 1952 Oakington - Battle of Britain At Home

PETERTHEEATER
13-04-2011, 10:29
I think that's a Type C and Type F. Nice pic.

Ossington_2008
15-04-2011, 11:35
There's a nice miniature AEC Matador doing the rounds at airshows these days, well, Waddo & Fairford at least. I'm sure I have a photo somewhere.

kebecker
15-04-2011, 19:01
There's a nice miniature AEC Matador doing the rounds at airshows these days, well, Waddo & Fairford at least. I'm sure I have a photo somewhere.

From memory there was one or two at Duxford running a shuttle up and down the airfield

Selwyn
19-04-2011, 12:55
These were still used on Nimrods,I spent a spell in AGSE (Armament Ground Support Equipment) at Kinloss working on them before moving to the line.

Spike, I stole one once...............................Its a long story!

P Bellamy
23-04-2011, 19:39
Coming back from Sywell this afternoon I passed a farmer on a tractor towing what appeared to be a C Type trolley with a simple plank bed on it. :)

PETERTHEEATER
24-04-2011, 09:33
Versatility! Just don't try to go over any humps!