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PETERTHEEATER
11-10-2009, 09:40
42 Group RAF who were responsible for the management of RAF munitions during WW2 were also responsible for the supply of aviation fuel and lubricants and aircraft breathing oxygen.

The first two topics are covered in threads in the forum but little has been discussed on the provision of oxygen.

It is known that some of the major munitions storage sites had permanent oxygen facilities and others used mobile equipment manned by a 'roving' team of specialists.

Many thousands of bulk storage cylinders were returned from airfields, filled and put back into the supply chain. At Squadron level these would have been mounted on trollies (carts) equipped with a regulator system and used to charge aircraft installed cylinders via a high pressure flexible hose. Dependent on aircraft type, the aircraft cylinder(s) might be removed and charged 'off aircraft' before being re-installed.

Little information appears to be available on this topic and posters are invited to comment on my suppositions.

I do not think that munitions storage sites had their own oxygen production equipment. I think that liquid oxygen (LOX) was bought in from civil contractors (e.g British Oxygen Company) and that it was stored in a tank from which it was converted into gaseous form and pumped to fill the storage cylinders.

A well known site which did produce LOX was Cardington and I believe that Pulham also had a plant.

What can you tell me about the role of the munitions storage depots, expecially FADs, in producing oxygen?

Paul Francis
11-10-2009, 09:47
The pulham plant was re-fitted at Cardington and was still in use in the mid-1990s, I have no idea what became of it though.

ted angus
11-10-2009, 17:00
Paul, the original plant was still in use when I did my Operator, Ic and QA courses at Cardington in 1983 prior to going to Goose bay. One of the Cardington plants had gone on a Ro Ro to support the Falklands task force as the on board plants on the 2 carriers could not support the quantity required -- trying hard to remember the name of the Ro Ro ???????? the plant was subsequently installed at Stanley then moved to MPA. I went back to Cardington in 1994 to requalify prior to a tour at MPA by then the new plants were in use. I will see if I can find my notes and then quote the types of plant.
Does anyone have any photos of the mobile plants please ?

OFF topic can anyone direct me to publications on airfield buildings. I have most of the Action stations series and the tiny pocket bookNo 1 by Graham Buchan Innes; Vehicles and GSE are my core interest but I have been bitten by the threads talking about Barrack Blocks Hangers etc. Would also be interested to learn more about the A -M schemes and the differences between L & M which I understand was due to the commencement of hostilities ??

TED

Peter Kirk
11-10-2009, 17:06
Ted,

This one is good though the price is a bit on the high side here. It crops up in e-Bay occasionally at a reasonable-ish price.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Military-Airfield-Architecture-Airships/dp/185260462X

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517VWYVK3KL._SL500_AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/185260462X/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=266239&s=books)

I suspect the author will comment soon :)

Richard Flagg
11-10-2009, 17:40
OFF topic can anyone direct me to publications on airfield buildings. I have most of the Action stations series and the tiny pocket bookNo 1 by Graham Buchan Innes; Vehicles and GSE are my core interest but I have been bitten by the threads talking about Barrack Blocks Hangers etc. Would also be interested to learn more about the A -M schemes and the differences between L & M which I understand was due to the commencement of hostilities ??

TED

The Ken Delve series of books is reasonable too. You'll see loads of reccomendations in the research media part of the forum too.

Pauls book (the one PNK mentions above) is great and a must have.

I'd also suggest joining the ARG as there is alot of great stuff that comes out in the Airfield Review Journal 4 times a year.

ted angus
11-10-2009, 18:34
Gents thanks for the replies best I start saving the pension !
thank you.

PETERTHEEATER
12-10-2009, 08:35
Help! I'm running out of oxygen..........

Peter Kirk
12-10-2009, 10:02
Can't help with this one. All I know is what has been posted so far.

However, was there a standard building for storing oxygen on each airfield and also was the LOX plant easily identifiable at Pulham/Cardington?

Oxygen storage must have been similar to explosives I would have thought as it can be a dangerous gas in the wrong circumstances (Appolo 1?).

PETERTHEEATER
12-10-2009, 10:38
Charged and empty oxygen cylinders on airfiled sites were stored by the Supply section (Stores in RAF parlance), usually in a an open secure compound on metal racks so that they could be rolled to faciitate handling. Overhead cover would be provided to keep off the worst of the elements. Oxygen even at high pressures in cylinders is safe to handle but must not come into contact with oil or there is a serious risk of spontaneous fire. Distilled water is used where lubrication of threads is required.

I recall an incident at Gaydon in the late 50's when a 4 bottle trolley was accidentally struck by the edge of a hangar door (Gaydon type) which was being cranked shut. The massive weight of the door gave unstoppable inertia and the trolley was tipped onto its side and freakishly the valve of one of the cylinders was fractured and sheared off. The trolley took off with a loud bang as if rocket propelled and ended up a 100 yards away. Fortunately, no injuries to personnel.

I have seen reference to separate oxygen storage areas and even loading/unloading rail platforms on the site plans of some munitions storage sites but on airfield site plans they are probably just part of the Stores.

I shall browse through some tonight and see if I can find a separate Building number.

Carnaby
12-10-2009, 18:44
I do not think that munitions storage sites had their own oxygen production equipment.
Peter, from my notes (almost certainly from AIR2/10710):
Prior to 1943 FADs would normally receive deliveries of oxygen from British Oxygen Company for delivery to the airfields, but again with rapidly increasing demands many units were equipped with Kentford plants which enabled them to manufacture their own supply. This scheme began in April 1943, the first units being supplied to 202MU Longparish, 36MU Newdigate, 92MU Brafferton, 233MU Market Stainton, 231MU Hockering, 98MU Mawcarse and 96MU Eynsham. Other units followed later.

As an example of the scale of this operation, 100 MU was refilling some 2,700 bottles per month, during the peak of the bomber offensive, whilst 231 MU filled a record total of 222 cylinders in one day.

BOC Plants were at Southampton, Greenwich, Wembley, Witham, Coventry, Wolverhampton, Derby, Rotherham, Leeds, Hull, Stockton-on-Tees (Billingham).

Graham

ColinBa
13-10-2009, 09:35
I thought that in the post-war period all or most airfields had the capability to charge its own oxygen cylinders. Hence the duty E&I guy and the persistent chugging of the charging apparatus.
At Linton there were about 80 aeroplanes being flown around the clock, it is difficult to see all of the oxygen being imported.

PETERTHEEATER
13-10-2009, 09:38
Thanks Graham, as someone has managed modern LOX plants on airfields in the Middle East I know that once a production run starts to fill the storage tank the plant has to be kept running 24/7 until the tank is full. Filling a couple of hundred cylinders in one day is incredible. Either they were smaller than the modern equivalent (in size or volume or filled pressure) or there was more than one plant, even several, provided. In case of breakdown, LOX could be 'bought in' from commercial sources.

I shall see what I can find out about Kentford plants.

I should mention that, apart from Oxygen, Nitrogen cylinders were also filled. Nitrogen is a by-product of LOX production via cryogenic process and is referred to as LIN. A separate and smaller storage tank would be required.

Presumably, other gases required for use at airfield level such as Acetylene, CO2 were requisitioned from industrial gas producers and not supplied by 42 Group.

ted angus
13-10-2009, 15:46
Not all units required LOX in the 1960/70/80/ EARLY 90s as some aircraft type relied on gaseous only. in the 60/70/80s all Lox in UK was delivered to user units by BOC or other contracters at Leuchars in the early 90s it was Air Supply Ltd.
All gaseous oxygen (except welding) in the UK and Germany in the period I have mentioned was delivered by road from 279 M U at Cardington.
Cylinders were stored on wooden dunnage in secure compounds. Overseas a rudimentary cover was erected. Peter storage an steel rails etc has never been permitted.
Peter you say 100 cylinders a day is incredible but I presume the MUs were running several plants together 24/7 ??

The most familiar means of transporting oxygen around the airfield was/still is the 4 bottle trolley but on many units a Bedford OY later a Bedford S flatbed with a dozen cylinders would be a familiar siight.
Peter you may recall these trucks. ?

Peter How as a plumber, did you end up working in a LOX plant ??

In both Goose bay and the Falklands we stored LIN we had produced as it was used at the local hospital and by the local veterinarians. From the Lin we also filled Nitrogen cylinders.

In reply to ColinBA its only since about 1995 the flying stations became able to fill their own cylinders from LOX, but most import via a contracter, Most aircraft use only LOX now and even stations like Linton or Cranwell don't use a collossal amount; a lot of breathing oxygen can be obtained by the onboard gear from a relativaly small Lox pot. Colin you mention E & I guys thats a bygone term ??

An interesting subject I will look for some vehicle piccies of Oxy trucks to post in the relevant area

TEd

WJT
13-10-2009, 16:45
What about hydrogen for the barrage balloons - or did they use helium?

ted angus
13-10-2009, 17:24
Hydrogen ; near the entrance to Cardington was a huge Gasometer for hydrogen. Whernever I went there I always thought to myself: had this been the 1940s in the event of an air raid which ARS is furthest from this lethal weapon. !!! I don't know if Cardington was the only WW2 producer of hydrogen for the balloons ???//

TED

Carnaby
13-10-2009, 17:28
What about hydrogen for the barrage balloons - or did they use helium?

Just tried to compare H and He - and failed. Some sources say Hydrogen has four times the lifting power of He, others say a 8% difference.

However I remember from my involvement with hot-air and gas balloons a decade or so ago, that hydrogen was almost always used for leisure balloons. Despite its flamability, IIRC it cost around 500 to fill a balloon. Helium was several grand. At the end of your flight the pilot vents the contents to atmosphere - no way of recovering it.

I also read somewhere that there is a limited supply of He available. When it's gone, it's gone. Costs are rising.

Graham

Ossington_2008
14-10-2009, 20:15
Until this thread started, I hadn't thought much about the of evidence of Bomber Commands oxygen supply chain either in the archives or on the ground but it seems once you look, there doesn't appear to be a great deal. Are we missing something? It couldn't all have been supplied by BOC using their existing commercial depots could it? What was the demand for breathable oxygen in places like East Anglia in 1939?
I don't have a great deal of info on bomb stores but I have checked my plans such as for Lords Bridge etc but only one site comes up with a definate something.
A place dear to my heart as it happens, 93MU Swinderby, sited at Swinderby railway station midway between Newark & Lincoln then renamed Norton Disney, just to confuse people.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo322/Ossington_2008/ND212-10-94.jpg

Sidings were built between the level crossings that curved west then north to three bomb stores just out of the top of this picture. That scrubby area in the centre was the accom/office site. NDis also went on to hold chemical weapons and consumables such as window/chaff (foil strips)
That reversed L to the right of the picture, adjacent the road, became an oxygen plant, presumably for all of 5 Group unless someone knows different.
SK86835 64585 and 53.171331, -0.702395 according to Wheres the path. Image dated 1994 BTW.

Ossington_2008
14-10-2009, 20:33
I bl##dy double posted! I'm going to watch the rest of the football! Bah!

Carnaby
14-10-2009, 20:54
I bl##dy double posted! I'm going to watch the rest of the football! Bah!
You can edit, and delete your second post. Then I'll delete this one!

Second thoughts - I'll add something useful. 92 MU Brafferton had its O2 plant at Cundall, to the north-west. I visited it c.1985 - it was just a concrete base a few metres off the main road.

G.

Carnaby
14-10-2009, 21:22
Yet more ORB snippets from my unpublished tome.
Dec 1942 - HQ 42 Group agrees to supply oxygen requirements to 8th AF for first three months this being estimated at 9.5M cu feet.

21.8.43 - Four oxygen plants received at 93 MU.

?.11.43 - Oxygen plant exploded at 94 MU Barnham.

12.2.44 - No.36 MU Charlwood, record no - 110 off 16,000 litre oxygen bottles filled in one day.

22.3.44 - No.92 MU oxygen plant commences to function at Cundall.

13.5.44 - 1,900 oxygen cylinders serviced by 231 MU Hockering.

Mid 44 - Kentford oxygen plants received at 94 MU Barnham.

22.6.55 The first B.A.I.D Oxygen plant to be supplied to the RAF in the UK is delivered to 91 MU Acaster Malbis on three trucks. There are parts missing, it has not been lubricated.

?.2.56 The BAID oxygen plant at 91 MU is still very unreliable.

3.1.57 No.91 MU Acaster Malbis is no longer required by 40 Group. The BAID oxygen plant is to go to Rufforth, which will become 93 MSU.

Observation, 1990 - Much of 93 MU has disappeared during the last few years, the COs house is in use by the road, and just to the north the concrete base of the oxygen filling shed can be seen.
Graham

ted angus
14-10-2009, 22:16
B.A.1.D was the plant in use when I was first at Cardington 1983; It was a spare B.A.1.D. from Cardington that was operated on a Ro Ro disembarked to Pt Stanley in 1982. . Never ever asked what B.A.1.D. stood for strange how you just accept things when its just a job !!

TED

Carnaby
14-10-2009, 22:29
Never ever asked what B.A.1.D. stood for strange how you just accept things when its just a job !! TED

AArrgghh I've always wondered what it stood for - however I realise that it is now BA1D, not BAID. BA must be 'Breathing Air'

Graham

ted angus
14-10-2009, 22:40
Graham I must search the loft for my course notes : But I only remember it being called B.A.1.D no full name just the initials. Breathing Air possibly or was there ever a company British Air ?? I am waiting for a response from a mate who is still a serving GEF WO he was on a Ro Ro with the Engineering echelon of 63Sqn RAF Regt and should know which one had the plant on as there wasn't too many ships taken up from trade in the initial taskforce.
TED

ted angus
14-10-2009, 23:48
From FLIGHT archives the BOC arm involved in the manufacture of aviation support items including Lox plants was called British Oxygen Aviation Services;
possibly the B & A are derived from there ?
Ted

PETERTHEEATER
15-10-2009, 07:15
Ted Angus said:

Peter storage an steel rails etc has never been permitted.

I agree, up to a point. Most gas cylinders were stored horizontally for convenience of handling and the dunnage was timber. But, to bring the 'line' to a working height, I have seen steel frames used albeit with the wood runners laid on top. Certain types of gases had to be stored cylinder upright.

Peter you say 100 cylinders a day is incredible but I presume the MUs were running several plants together 24/7 ??

Filling of individual storage cylinders requires 'pumping' through a compressor via a flexible hose connection. Most modern airfield plants issue LOX/LIn and cylinder filling is a sideline. Consequently the provision of charging manifolds is modest.

For WW2 munitions sites to charge so many cylinders daily they would have needed lots of charging banks fed from a VIE (LOX storage tank). Just a couple of LOX production plants would probably be able to keep the VIE filled to feed the charging banks. We are also looking at a considerable number of specialist personnel too, enough to run 12 hour shifts continously.
Although the demand was lower for gaseous Nitrogen, separate dedicated charging manifolds were required.

The most familiar means of transporting oxygen around the airfield was/still is the 4 bottle trolley but on many units a Bedford OY later a Bedford S flatbed with a dozen cylinders would be a familiar siight.
Peter you may recall these trucks. ?

Before my time! In my service experience I only recall single and four bottle trollies being used.

[I]Peter How as a plumber, did you end up working in a LOX plant ??

I didn't work in a LOX plant but they came under my management responsiblity and were a constant source of problems since hundreds of combat aircraft were dependent on LOX/LIN. When the plant 'went down', Supply had to buy in LOX/LIN from a contractor and would moan about the cost.I did a personal one on one course on the SK145 Plant in 1989!

WJT
15-10-2009, 07:43
As is the norm for AiX, this thread has spawned some fascinating discussion and lots of additional topics for research. I managed to get a look around Cardington just before it closed, as the trucks were moving out the gear and the last of the bottles. Will try and find the photos and post anything of interest. I seem to recall that I have something on gas bottle charging at Sutton Bridge in the years after the war.

As for bottle trollies, I have seen a wide range of these over the years. At Brawdy we had as many as 100, which were left outside in the saline wet atmosphere to slowly corrode away to dust; those that wern't vandalised by the Liney's of course! One Friday night I remember watching someone tow bottle trolleys off the ASP after the aircraft had been put away. He must have had ten or a dozen hooked up to the back of the Land Rover and as he accelerated away down the ASP this 'train' started to snake and the rearmost trolley was flailing about 20 yards either side of the Rover as it sped along. Fourtunately he slowed down before disaster occurred.

Turning to bottles mounted on lorries, my own knowledge of these has been limited to seeing hydrogen stored on lorries for delivery to barrage balloons, or latterly for the balloons used for static jumps at places such as Weston on the Green. Trailers were also used, typically the standard chassis produced by Brockhouse and Eagle.

PETERTHEEATER
15-10-2009, 08:08
I think that it is worth saying at this point that evidence is now surfacing to show that the reciept, charging,and issue of gaseous cylinders was a big task for each munitions storage area.The additional task of supplying the 8th USAAF would have increased that workload considerably.

Aviation breathing oxygen, then and now, was required to be to a higher standard than industrial or medical oxygen and so there must have been a central authority to which periodic samples were sent for testing.

In the early part of the war, it would appear that LOX/LIN was bought in from a civil contractor (BOC) so on-site VIE (Vacuum Insulated Evaporator) for the separate storage would have been required plus the associated cryogenic pumps, evaporator systems, compressors and charging manifolds.

Later, the evidence suggests that dedicated production plants were established. Mobile plants were also in use. This brings me to my next supposition.

I have assumed that the cryogenic production of LOX/LIN was the method. That is using the fractional distillation method whereby ambient air was compressed, dried,filtered and converted to liquid. There are other methods of production and the use of mobile plants implies this so I need to dig further and see what I can find.

Peter Kirk
15-10-2009, 12:33
Sorry to say this is a side of aviation that I never gave much thought to so I am grateful for all the information that has been posted.

This brings me to a another thought about AiX and AR. A lot of threads have proved to be most interesting, like this one, and I feel they should be summaried (or expanded?) into an article for AR. Don't know how though.

ted angus
15-10-2009, 18:55
The attached was taken at Scampton, The Vulcan is carrying a wet blue steel the rear of the accompanying DP 1 fire tender is behind the Bedford. The Bedford S type is carrying a standard oxygen charging set. A bank of bottles connected to a regulator --A Mk 3 i think??-- from there the standard flexi hose. At the time this was the main replen method for the Vulcan and other NON LOX carrying aircraft on their home bases; The predecessor was the Bedford OY which saw service replening Lancasters etc.

At both MPA and Goose we replenished medical oxygen these were given additional QA checks but we had no problems meeting the spec-- The plants either behaved or they didn't !! Personally I hated working on the plants; give my a stinky AEC deisel or Rolls Royce B series to rebuild any day !!

TED

ted angus
15-10-2009, 21:13
Its predecessor was the Bedford OY seen here attending to a Lanc .
In the Fight archives is a write up on the 1953 Coronation review, included was a new Oxy plant. It was trailer mounted, It pumped bottles from LOX stored in a Sphere which was replenished on demand by BOC !! towing vehicle was a AEC Matador which carried a Diesel generater set.
TED

P.S. No I never saw the OY in service not quite that grey !!

ted angus
15-10-2009, 21:23
I think that it is worth saying at this point that evidence is now surfacing to show that the reciept, charging,and issue of gaseous cylinders was a big task for each munitions storage area.The additional task of supplying the 8th USAAF would have increased that workload considerably.

Aviation breathing oxygen, then and now, was required to be to a higher standard than industrial or medical oxygen and so there must have been a central authority to which periodic samples were sent for testing.

In the early part of the war, it would appear that LOX/LIN was bought in from a civil contractor (BOC) so on-site VIE (Vacuum Insulated Evaporator) for the separate storage would have been required plus the associated cryogenic pumps, evaporator systems, compressors and charging manifolds.

Later, the evidence suggests that dedicated production plants were established. Mobile plants were also in use. This brings me to my next supposition.

I have assumed that the cryogenic production of LOX/LIN was the method. That is using the fractional distillation method whereby ambient air was compressed, dried,filtered and converted to liquid. There are other methods of production and the use of mobile plants implies this so I need to dig further and see what I can find.

Peter there is an AP on the Kentford at Kew may try and get a copy.
Just as you suggest; from what I have read of BOC's history I think the whole RAF supply of oxygen was very BOC dependant; some plants being merely cylinder filling facilities; then self contained plants undertaking the whole process;

Re testing I am sure we sent our samples to Harefield House in Middlesex same place as aeronautical heat treatment and welding samples were sent to. It may well have been that Cardington was the WW2 test centre or possibly a BOC lab somewhere; So many questions I just wish I could visit Kew and Hendon.

TED

Carnaby
15-10-2009, 21:46
AArrgghh I've always wondered what it stood for - however I realise that it is now BA1D, not BAID. BA must be 'Breathing Air'
Graham

Discovered this web site: http://www.cpearce.orconhosting.net.nz/AM_REF_NUM.htm#

Re: RAAF stores numbering system, Several references to BAID, e.g.
Generating set 37.5kVA, 220V, 60Hz 3-phase installed in BAID Oxygen/Nitrogen producing plant

Engine Cummins for use in BAID Oxygen/Nitrogen plant

Engine Dorman 4 BK2 in 20kVA and 25kVA generating sets, 6KA in BAID oxygen/nitrogen plant, 6KU in truck snow clearance
Still no idea what it means.

However many abbreviations to the sport and profession of diving use 'BA' (eg SCUBA) - this means 'Breathing Air', which contains Nitrogen, as pure O2 isn't good for you.

Graham

PETERTHEEATER
16-10-2009, 08:31
Ted Angus wrote:

Re testing I am sure we sent our samples to Harefield House in Middlesex same place as aeronautical heat treatment and welding samples were sent to. It may well have been that Cardington was the WW2 test centre or possibly a BOC lab somewhere; So many questions I just wish I could visit Kew and Hendon.


I opine that, in WW2, it was Cardington. From 1970 onward we had to send our samples (Middle East foreign airforce) to Puriton, Bridgewater, Somerset for testing. I don't know whether it was associated with the ROF or a separate entity.

PETERTHEEATER
16-10-2009, 08:37
Re Carnaby's post above:

I know of the BA1D Plant but had no responsibility toward it. it was provided in 'modules', generator (to drive the electric powered compressor motor), compressor, filtration unit, and storage tank (VIE).

The plant required large amounts of distilled water, presumably for compressor lubrication, and it was usual to have a large tank on site to store this. So, if the BA1D was installed at RAF munitions depots in the late '40s soemeone had to supply the water.

ted angus
16-10-2009, 13:18
Yes Puriton it was : Firstly please send me a few of your grey cells !! of course it was Puriton, same place as we sent samples from the paintshop breathing air compressors and filters. Originally ROF but like everything else the parent name changed. #
TED

ted angus
16-10-2009, 23:23
Confirmation that the Kentford was merely a compressing plant:

TNA Kew: AIR10/6094 ---Air publication 2438D Vols 1& 6 `Kentford' mobile oxygen compressing plant: general and technical information and repair and reconditioning instructions.

PETERTHEEATER
17-10-2009, 07:35
So it would have needed GOX from an Exchanger fed with LOX?

ted angus
17-10-2009, 16:37
So it would have needed GOX from an Exchanger fed with LOX?

Peter sorry don't follow ?/ do you mean it would have produced GOX etc ?

TED

PETERTHEEATER
18-10-2009, 06:58
Peter sorry don't follow ?/ do you mean it would have produced GOX etc ?

TED
No, if the Kentford was only a compressing plant then it would have needed a supply of gaseous oxygen (GOX) from an exchanger fed with liquid oxygen (LOX) stored in a tank (VIE). The Kentford compressed the GOX and fed it to a bank of manifolds used to charge HP Storage cylinders.

In other words, it was not an oxygen production plant just a compressor?

ted angus
18-10-2009, 11:30
Peter with you now; unless it did have its own exchanger ? The 1953 compresser plant was on a multiwheeler trailer. It had a sphere into with BOC delivered LOX it also had a small balloon type device to store Gas which was then compressed to cylinders. Its possible the Kentford did a similar function ; i.e. as long as it was bulked by BOC with LOX it could carry out all the functions subsequently needed to get gas into the bottles ??

Otherwise in addition to BOC delivering and the Kentford putting GOX into bottles a third piece of jigsaw would be needed ??

Next question who is going to Kew in the near future

Air 10/6094 will have all the answers on this one, I have a contact in London who will drag the file out and copy for me but it may not be for several months.
TED

Carnaby
18-10-2009, 12:19
Air 10/6094 will have all the answers on this one,
TED

AIR 10/4657 Mobile Oxygen and Nitrogen Plant, MKII (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4133861&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2COXYGEN&accessmethod=0) 1947 may also be of interest. There should be something on the BAID in TNA.

Lots of stuff in AVIA, but most relates to aircraft.
AVIA 54/1472 Oxygen producing plant: inter-services technical committee to co-ordinate research and development (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=3920879&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2COXYGEN&accessmethod=0)

Graham

ted angus
18-10-2009, 21:13
Thank you I am slowly going through the online catologue. I hope my London based friend has plenty of free time !!!! My main interests are ground support equipment and MT vehicles seems to be several APs in AIR 10.
TED

PETERTHEEATER
22-10-2009, 09:47
Good stuff posters. Every little helps.

ted angus
22-10-2009, 12:16
My London friend was on the phone last night and will go to Kew for me, this morning I have sent him a list of references including the Kentford and the mobile Oxy & N2 plant. So fingers crossed !! I have been digging re BA1D but as we know first hand its function i.e. the production of O, N2 LOX & LIN from fresh air I won't spent any more time on that although I am still trying to find out which ship carried the plant ex Cardington to the Falklands.

I am also looking for more detail on the mobile oxygen plant that featured in the Coranation review in 1953, what is stated in FLIGHT is :it received LOX from BOC and filled cylinders for flightline use on exercises ?/

TED

ted angus
21-11-2009, 12:27
first info is filtering in from Kew firstly the Kentford. The Kentford was merely an Oxygen compressing unit. It comprised a LOX storage tank , BOC gas Compressor and a water distilation plant mounted on a 20ton SMT 8 twin wheel trailer. It was towed by an AEC Matador that carried a generator to power the trailer. The trailer could run on mains supply when availible. Once on site a Nurse Balloon was deployed; this and the storage tank were then filled with LOX by BOC.

The second item filtering through is the Mobile oxy & nit plant mounted on an AEC 0854 6x6 truck ; This is circa 1944 and is a fully self contained unit that takes fresh air and produces LOX or LIN then can pump into the relevant cylinders. More to follow

TED

PETERTHEEATER
24-11-2009, 09:15
first info is filtering in from Kew firstly the Kentford. The Kentford was merely an Oxygen compressing unit. It comprised a LOX storage tank , BOC gas Compressor and a water distilation plant mounted on a 20ton SMT 8 twin wheel trailer. It was towed by an AEC Matador that carried a generator to power the trailer. The trailer could run on mains supply when availible. Once on site a Nurse Balloon was deployed; this and the storage tank were then filled with LOX by BOC.

The second item filtering through is the Mobile oxy & nit plant mounted on an AEC 0854 6x6 truck ; This is circa 1944 and is a fully self contained unit that takes fresh air and produces LOX or LIN then can pump into the relevant cylinders. More to follow

TED
Thanks Ted, the second unit sounds interesting.

The first unit described had an on-board water distillation plant so that is how they obtained the required purity for the BOC compressor.

I look forward to more info.

ted angus
24-11-2009, 14:58
Peter et al the second unit mounted on the AEC 0854 6x6 had its oygen pump cylinders and plungers lubricated by water, whilst the oxy pump crankshaft was oil lubricated. There is no mention of distilled water and I cannot see a distiolation plant in the set up. It had a water tank linked to the vapourising unit so at the moment I can only conclude it was this water that was used. Whilst not distilled it would have been the next best thing having been produced as a condensate at the vapouriser. Previously it was thought that this unit was a product of late43 early44; however I have found an RAE farnborough file dated 1942 that tasked them into investigating the adverse level of vibration being sufferred by the chassis of these units.
regards TED

PETERTHEEATER
25-11-2009, 08:48
Thanks Ted, now we are getting there! A fully self contained unit; I would love to see a picture and know what the typical output was.

ted angus
25-11-2009, 12:11
Here you are Peter; just had time for a bit of a study re the lubricating water; Not what I initially thought. It looks to be a tank filled from an outside source, and appears to be a sealed system. ; maybe your eyes are better than mine have a look. pictures of the truck are few and far between. There is a huge set of files in the IWM of photos of WW2 RAF vehicles but I doubt I will ever make that trip south again. The vehicle shot and that of the rear are from an AEC website; There doesn't appear to be a proper vehicle photo in the AP. Output is in the leading particulars.

PETERTHEEATER
27-11-2009, 09:27
Excellent Ted, thank you.

Going back to the beginning of this thread my query was how WW2 aviation storage cylinders were filled and by what. This data gives me the answer and an important missing piece of the jigsaw is now in place. The FADs under 42 Group RAF were responsible for fuel and oxygen/nitrogen provision over and above their primary task of munitions storage and supply.

I have a number of technical queries on the self-contained AEC plant and will enlist your help in answering these in due course.

WJT
27-11-2009, 15:08
This new book has all the gen on the (0)853 and (0)854 Matadors, including a chapter of the gas compressors - see here:

http://www.aecmatadors.co.uk


Havn't got the book yet, but it is highly recommended.

PETERTHEEATER
28-11-2009, 07:45
Thanks WJT.

Charlie
14-05-2010, 10:16
I was posted to Cardington in June 1957 on the Oxygen Production course. The equipment was the BA1D Transportable Oxygen /Nitrogen Production Plant. Following the course I was given a permanent posting as instructor until my demob. in November 59. The plant was formed by the combination of three units these were looking from the operation position. The right hand unit a had Dormer Long 110hp diesel engine. The centre comprised the 4 stage compressor behind the Caustic Soda Towers. On the left was the Distillation tower behind which was the refridgeration unit. The system worked by compressing air to 4000psi, and cooling it after each stage, the LP piston was about 10" (255cm) in diameter while the HP piston was 1 1/4" (3cm) as far as I remember. The air was passed through a heat exchanger from the refridgeration plant Then expanded to atmospheric pressure which further cooled it until cold enough to condense. The liquid air then was distilled, the Nitrogen having a lower boiling point gassed off leaving liquid oxgen. The plant was an American design and some of it was imported from the States. the rest was of British manufacture. The name BA1D has nothing to do with breathing air but instead stands for British/ American No 1 Distillation Plant. I hope that this is helpful. Charlie

PETERTHEEATER
14-05-2010, 10:25
That brings back memories Charlie. The original plant on a Middle East AF base at which I worked was a BA1D but fixed mode; required gallons of distilled water to operate so there was a sub-level tank holding around 10,000 litres. Due to a change in contractor by supply, the usual twice weekly delivery didn't happen and the water ran out and the plant was shut down. Result, no LOX and aircraft grounded!

A week later the guys in the plant called me to say an emergency delivery of distilled water had arrives and suggested that I might like to see the novel delivery system. In a devoutly Moslem country which had absolute prohibition on alcohol, the water was contained in individual Johnny Walker Red Label Scotch bottles, 12 to a case and about 1000 cases on a big truck!:):)

Carnaby
14-05-2010, 10:27
... The name BA1D has nothing to do with breathing air but instead stands for British/ American No 1 Distillation Plant. I hope that this is helpful. Charlie
Brilliant - and welcome to AiX, Charlie.

Again it proves that you can't always reply on TNA sources which have used 'BAID' in many instances.

Graham

ted angus
14-05-2010, 16:52
Thanks Charlie thats great info. I havre been in touch with the OXY School which by the way chaps is still at Stafford and in touch with the IPT for gaseous equipment at Wyton, the Winco equivalent heading the IPT at Wyton is a former Sgt who worked for me and neither establishments could find the full title for BA1D in any of their archive material. The plant at Goose was the full USAF version of the BA1D.
welcome to the group Charlie what trade were you Gen Mech or Gen Fitt by any chance ??
TED

cbrjock
14-05-2010, 17:14
One of the Cardington plants had gone on a Ro Ro to support the Falklands task force as the on board plants on the 2 carriers could not support the quantity required -- trying hard to remember the name of the Ro Ro ????????
TED

Hi Ted, would it have been the Keren by chance?

Pete

Mick845
09-08-2010, 15:37
BA!D The B stands for Butterley , Before Cardington majority of the courses run for operatiing Oxygen and Nitrogen Production Plants was at RAF Faldingworth, the later transferred to RAF Cardington . My intial gas course was at RAF Faldingworth January 1967 to March 1967 receiving an A1+ pass mark still annotated in my discharge book later in 1977 went to RAF Cardington on a refresher course by BAC to operate a similar type of plant at Khamis Mushayt and Tabouk in Saudui Arabia
at Cardington came upon the Phillips Cryogenerator which turned Oxygen or Nitrogen into Gas in Saudia Arabia we used the British Oyygen 1000 cu ft unit and the Goblin diapraghm compressor to pump nitrogen Gas into cylinders

ted angus
09-08-2010, 16:25
Pete I don't think it was the Keren my recollections are it was an all frieght Ro Ro.

Mick But Cardington has been the RAF gas factory & school since well before WW2 Faldingworth was just a teaching out station. I think it was opened to support the Nitrogen and HP air "Weir" plants at the V stations.

TED

canberra
09-08-2010, 16:56
Is there still an RAF gas school?

Mick845
10-08-2010, 17:12
Pete I don't think it was the Keren my recollections are it was an all frieght Ro Ro.

Mick But Cardington has been the RAF gas factory & school since well before WW2 Faldingworth was just a teaching out station. I think it was opened to support the Nitrogen and HP air "Weir" plants at the V stations.

TED

Ted, I didn't deny that RAF Cardington had shut down I just said the courses started up at RAF Faldingworth and aproximately in the mid sixties, they filled many cylinders, One of the most experienced people came upon was Ted Amesbury, a Chief Tech by the name of John Hewson was on the same course as me at Faldingworth. John later on retirement, took the theory side when BAC where sending their personal for training before going out to either Tobuck, Khamis Mushayt and Dahran.

After RAF Cardington we went back to Warton and was taught the basic's on the British Oxygen 1000 cu ft Plant, The compressor was a water cooled Hamworthy, we finished up at Tobuck fitting a Boy 40 Water Sofner for the aftercoolers on 2nd 3rd and 4th Stages kept furing up, the CO2 removal was not Caustic like the BAID mk4 but a silica gell like compound. The vent for the nitrogen to the air driers was controlled by a small turbine (remember the 6" flow with a table tennis ball in the little cage).

While doing my BAC course at RAF Cardington from April 1977 to May 1977 Lox production had ceased, the LOX tanks where refilled by tankers from Air Products, British Oxygen having lost the contract.

I gather that the Sgt running the courses at that time finished is engagement and went to work for BAC.

Regards Mick

ted angus
10-08-2010, 18:13
Mick don't understand the meaning of your first sentence but not to worry; in 67 when i arrived at Scampton there were lads in my block who worked on the plant(s) at Faldingworth. During my enforced sentence at Leuchars all the gas . Lox Lin contracts were with air Products.

Canberra the Gas school moved to Stafford from Cardington. It was going to move to Wittering to be with 5001 sqn but it was put on hold. I am not sure if the school is on the MoD site at Stafford or one of the sub sites they have leased back.

bignick
05-10-2010, 16:10
Canberra the Gas school moved to Stafford from Cardington. It was going to move to Wittering to be with 5001 sqn but it was put on hold. I am not sure if the school is on the MoD site at Stafford or one of the sub sites they have leased back.
Yup, Oxy school is now run by DSG, by some ex-GSEs, based on Stafford 6 Site opposite where the 'factory' was. The Hangar Erection Team (HET) used to occupy the building.
Believe it or not the GEMS/GMAC database lists the BA1D with some leading particulars, however, the military machine (steam driven lump of junk) that I am on won't allow me to upload it. If anyone is really that interested then I'll find a way.

Cheers

Nick

ted angus
05-10-2010, 19:35
The guy in charge of the schgool is an ex Sgt pete Parkinson The OXY gas IPT is led by another ex Sgt who worked for me at Leuchars Tom Wishart. what are you delving into ??

Currently I am trying to identify the ship that carried the BA1D to the Falklands in 1982 and supplied the fleet en route. It was manned by a team from the Cardington school

TED

PETERTHEEATER
10-10-2010, 08:11
I have just read in Graham Smith's book, 'Norfolk Airfields of the Second World War' a statement that a liquid oxygen system was used in all American heavy bombers throughout the Second World War.

If correct, I was not aware of this. AiX is concerned with airfields and there are other major forums on which details of aircraft installations can be discussed but my interest is in the support equipment that would have been required at airfields in the form of LOX storage and charging.

I think that the statement is intended to make the point that aviation quality gaseous oxygen could be provided via LOX and that this simplified the sustenance of aircrew on long bombing missions.

So my question demands a simple Yes or No answer. Did USAAF heavy bombers have an on-board LOX (Liquid Oxygen) or GOX (Gaseous Oxygen) system; everything I know or have seen or read points to GOX.

Carnaby
11-10-2010, 13:50
No real clues in Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual It states:

B-17 and B-24 had 18 lightweight G-1 oxygen storage bottles, each holding 5 hours supply for 1 man. A single F-1 was installed in the ball turret. Walk-around bottles were also provided for when the crew had to move between stations. All oxygen was obtained from British sources and supplied in standard steel cylinders. These were loaded onto special carts and towed out to dispersals to replenish aircraft storage bottles.

See also http://ww2f.com/information-requests/29907-oxygen-tanks.html
http://www.authorsden.com/categories/article_top.asp?catid=73&id=36665
http://www.pilotfriend.com/aeromed/medical/understanding_hypoxia.htm

Graham

ted angus
11-10-2010, 15:51
If it was supplied in cylinders it would be GOX bottle is often used by both UK & USA as an alternatiive title for cylinder especially the smaller airborne versions. i have never seen anything like a LOX trolley etc in any USAAF ground shots of that period.

I would say the answer is GOX
TED

PETERTHEEATER
12-10-2010, 06:56
That's the way I see it. Thanks for your responses.

canberra
12-10-2010, 18:31
Was LOX in use during wwii????

ted angus
12-10-2010, 19:09
It was in use in WW1 i believe ???

Carnaby
12-10-2010, 21:17
From several web sites:

As a consequence, from 1936 until somewhat after the end of WWII, both US Army and
Navy aviation relied almost exclusively upon gaseous oxygen delivery systems. With the
decision to standardise on gaseous oxygen equipment, renewed importance and priority

PETERTHEEATER
13-10-2010, 08:38
Was LOX in use during wwii????

Certainly. LOX was the primary source of gaseous oxygen for both commercial, medical and aviation use. British Oxygen Company (BOC) and the like operated large plants to produce LOX through the fractional distillation of air process. We have discussed earler in this thread that 42 Group RAF had the responsibility, a hence capability, to supply gaseous oxygen to squadrons. They did this by taking LOX from BOC and converting it to gas at aviation purity then pumped up the storage cylinders used on the ground trollies at airfields to charge aircraft on-board cylinders. We established through information recieved from AiX members that, in some cases, portable LOX to GOX production plants were owned by 42 Group and that made them largely independent of commercial suppliers.

Mike3LS
19-11-2010, 18:59
I was also posted to 217 MU at Cardington in 1957 to do the BA1D course and subsequently did a couple of months at Barnham and then back to 217 to join the Third line Servicing unit to support the BA1D plants in this country.The unit was a Chief Tech and me.We burned a lot of midnight oil and covered many miles in our own Vanguard pick-up.All sorts of snags of course but I seem to remember changing many Dorman clutches and repairing Caustic pumps.During 1960 we pressure tested the drier cylinders in-situ on many of the plants.Also around that time I was detached to Salters in Birmingham to inhibit a plant that was being packed by them for long term storage.I believe another one was done later but I was unavailable and a colleague did it.I was posted to Eastleigh in 1962 to run the plant there.When the Kenya Air Force took over the camp in 1964 that plant was inhibited and boxed up and I think was sent to Singapore.
I am baffled by the references to large quantities of distilled water being used.That is a new one on me unless my memory is failing.Did something happen after 1965 when I last saw a BA1D?
In my civvy employment with the MOD(N) I tried to see a copy of AP 2438H ( is that the correct No?) to see that schematic diagram but I had no success.

PETERTHEEATER
20-11-2010, 05:29
Mike3LS, welcome to AiX and welcome to this thread.

Thanks for your personal reminiscences it adds to the knowledge.

As I recall, the distilled water requirement for the BA1D that we used in the Middle East was for compressor lubrication. I reckon that quite a number of BA1D plants were sold-off to third world countries in late '60s early '70s but were subsequently replaced by later plant designs.

ted angus
20-11-2010, 11:32
Mike- welcome aboard obviously another from the cream of the trades !!!!

Gents -I had a delve into my archives of extracts from APs last night both the Kentford mobile Oxy pumping unit and the Mobile OXY- Nitriogen plant on the 6x6 AEC had distilled water for oxy pump lubrication. The compressor cooling was by plain water. But I cannot recall the BA 1D set up ?? distilled water is ringing a bell nothing about largish quantities is setting off any olde grey cells.

Mike what was your thoughts on the title BA1D ??

TED

PETERTHEEATER
21-11-2010, 05:23
The Middle East plant that I mentioned could not use local water which was untreated and had a very high mineral content so it is likely that distilled water was used for both compressor and pump.

ted angus
21-11-2010, 11:52
Morning Peter just shows how climatic and geographic issues can put a real spanner in the works

TED

Mike3LS
21-11-2010, 19:18
Morning Peter just shows how climatic and geographic issues can put a real spanner in the works

TEDHi there. Many thanks for the warm welcome.A few more remeniscences from the 1960`s and some queries all associated with BA1D plants.
Our 3LS workshop was originally situated in the main 217MU repair building at Cardington.Most of the work taking place at that time seemed to be the repair of mobile units on AEC chassis.Joe Binks,one of the four survivors from the ill fated R101 disaster was still working as a fitter at that time and I had the honour of knowing him.A nicer chap you could never meet.Sadly no longer with us.We moved out into our own workshop and store facility in 1958alongside the training plant
I fully agree with Charlies interpretation of BA1D and have also confirmed this with his colleague from 1969 who I am still in touch with!(Derek)!
BA1D plants that I was involved with between 1957 and 1965 always had the compressor cooled by radiators.These were hardly up to the job and were a constant problem particularly in the middle east where is was not uncommon to run the fridge unit continually to maintain levels in the distillation column.The fridge unit was only there to bring the temperatures down in the initial cooling period.But needs must.Was this system modified at a later date?
One point on Charlies comments.I think the air pressure was only 3000psi but the compressor did have to work very hard even at that figure. I stand to be corrected.
The set-up at Eastleigh was much more relaxed than that at Faldingworth for instance.Nairobi was only a staging post and the resident squadrons at Eastleigh operated Beverleys and Twin Pioneers.Not a great demand for Oxygen there.With the visiting traffic we were able to keep on top of the requirement without working 24 hr shifts and were not staffed to do so anyway.Normally we ran the plant during the day.Although Nairobi is almost on the equator it is 5500ft altitude and not humid so it didn`t warm up much overnight.Two problems did arise that I remember.There was a shortage of Nitrogen on one occasion and we set the plant up to produce it.It should do it but has anybody out there tried it?I can`t remember if we succeeded but I think we were saved by the arrival of some Nitrogen cylinders from Mombasa.The other problem we had was the gradual introduction of aircraft using LOX.We did have to work some very long hours to fill a LOX tank.Sometimes I think it was gassing off quicker than we could produce it.Happy days!

PETERTHEEATER
22-11-2010, 09:26
You are right Mike, we used a pre-cooler refrigeration plant on the compressor too as did the later replacement plant SK147.

Helljohn
01-01-2012, 20:20
Hello All,

I served at Port Stanley during the time they had the LOX Plant rubber hangar (Rub). I was a Junior Tech GSE Fitter. Stanley GSE section was also constructed of RUBS as was the MT section adjacent. When I got there the system was that you were assigned to aparticular part of the GSE section in heat or power, ie Electrical generators, Houchin 60 kva, 25 kva`s, Meadows on the skids 35 kw methinks?, Pellapone gennys etc or mainly Apollo space heaters, though there were a few ancient 4Therms. Oh yeah...I was assigned to Lifting Bloody Tackle ( a half size ISO container to be the workshop....no kidding). Like working from a fridge !

......Anyway, after spending 2 months or so in Lifting Tackle I was assigned to the LOX Plant. As far as I can recall and the general rumour mill at the time, there was a bit of a problem as the main compressor decided to throw a crankshaft, just at the time when half hourly and hourly checks were being recorded. Some drains and valves had to drained and vented etc. I was told some guy was bending down draining when the crankcase blew. I say the chap must have been afright or, in common parlance, he `**** himself `. rightly so. What ?

I never had any converion course at Cardington...but I soon learned the hard way. I later met the chap I replaced. His name is Mick Tharpe. A big bear of a Yorkshireman when I saw him last at RAE Farnborough GSE section. ( By this time I was the civvy Chargehand i/c the section. Of course I had managers above, rarely set foot in the hanger) (M shed). Mick was now a Sargeant working from IAM Farnborough (Institute of Aviation Medicine)...Funny, I ever did ask him about the incident.

I did read an extract from a thread on this forum regards the LOX Plant...
Quote ...`

I was posted to Cardington in June 1957 on the Oxygen Production course. The equipment was the BA1D Transportable Oxygen /Nitrogen Production Plant. Following the course I was given a permanent posting as instructor until my demob. in November 59. The plant was formed by the combination of three units these were looking from the operation position. The right hand unit a had Dormer Long 110hp diesel engine. The centre comprised the 4 stage compressor behind the Caustic Soda Towers. On the left was the Distillation tower behind which was the refridgeration unit. The system worked by compressing air to 4000psi, and cooling it after each stage, the LP piston was about 10" (255cm) in diameter while the HP piston was 1 1/4" (3cm) as far as I remember. The air was passed through a heat exchanger from the refridgeration plant Then expanded to atmospheric pressure which further cooled it until cold enough to condense. The liquid air then was distilled, the Nitrogen having a lower boiling point gassed off leaving liquid oxgen. The plant was an American design and some of it was imported from the States. the rest was of British manufacture. The name BA1D has nothing to do with breathing air but instead stands for British/ American No 1 Distillation Plant. I hope that this is helpful. Charlie `...unquote

Pasted from <http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/archive/index.php/t-3368.html>

The description above was exactly how it was at Stanley...and my very first job was helping to install THE new compressor. As Far as I recall you had to be at least JT to be sent on the course and work in the LOX plant. All GSE Fitters JT and above. No LAC, SAC or any other trade group that I was aware of. I was an exception due to the incident. but I loved every minute of it !!

PETERTHEEATER
02-01-2012, 06:59
Thanks for the anecdote. Problem is everyone thinks that a LOX plant will run 24/7 with just routine maintenance. When it does throw a serious mechanical fit the management turn out demanding quick fixes as if its the fault of the plant fitters. They then find that spares are obsolete and that what the guys on the plant have been reporting for years is true. Plan and invest for new hardware now!

Helljohn
02-01-2012, 13:48
Thanks for the anecdote. Problem is everyone thinks that a LOX plant will run 24/7 with just routine maintenance. When it does throw a serious mechanical fit the management turn out demanding quick fixes as if its the fault of the plant fitters. They then find that spares are obsolete and that what the guys on the plant have been reporting for years is true. Plan and invest for new hardware now!

Thanks for reply Peter.

Sounds just about right re: above. I came across this Forum by sheer chance. Just browsing thru the WWW for GSE related content. I must say I`ve learned a lot about airfield gases and the like. I`m not sure to classify it as sad or informative...lets plump for the latter eh ?
I served in the RAF from March 1978 till Feb 1984. Leading to eventual PVR, big mistake I often regret. Having said that, other events would not have been set in motion...Oh for that elusive Crystal Ball...

I did have some pics taken at the plant as it was when I was there, but unfortunately the ones within the plant never turned out. Shame. I have a few poor pics taken at the back and side outside the plant..I might try and attach them just for the nostalgia...Have a GREAT New Year.....John

ted angus
02-01-2012, 15:27
Happy new year John Mick worked for me, it was either Laarbruch or Leuchars ; I am still trying to find out which merchant ship carried a BA1D with a crew mainly formed from Cardington school staff to the Falklands providing product to the fleet whilst the war was fought. It would have been the original plant you worked on at Stanley. Dig the photos out !!
TED

Helljohn
10-02-2012, 06:31
Happy new year John Mick worked for me, it was either Laarbruch or Leuchars ; I am still trying to find out which merchant ship carried a BA1D with a crew mainly formed from Cardington school staff to the Falklands providing product to the fleet whilst the war was fought. It would have been the original plant you worked on at Stanley. Dig the photos out !!
TED

Cheers Ted,

Ted some time ago I said I`d dig out some pics of the LOX plant in Stanley, sorry can`t seem to find em yet. To redeem myself a little I came accross these, courtesy of a friend of mine. Colin Heaney. Coln worked in the LOX plant for about 2 years ish, in Thumrait, Oman (Airwork Ltd).
I was in the GSE /MT section at the same period....I must say it looks different to the plant in Stanley, maybe it`s just my memory.
7747 7748 7749 .7750

PETERTHEEATER
10-02-2012, 08:55
Looks like the same plant as Airwork Ltd installed at Dhahran (Saudi Arabia) in 1969 for the Lightning contract.

ted angus
10-02-2012, 12:35
Thanks John does look a bit different but its mant years and lots of teeth ago thanks for posting
TED

Helljohn
13-02-2012, 22:17
Looks like the same plant as Airwork Ltd installed at Dhahran (Saudi Arabia) in 1969 for the Lightning contract.

Thanks Peter.

At the time I was in Thumrait I worked alongside a chap called Joe Kurth, ex RAF Chief Tech GSE. I was there around 1985. Joe told me he was in Dhahran with BAE a few years earlier 1980 ish ? I think Joe was in the LOX plant there. He told me a story about a Scotsman that worked there, Jimmy (what else) and that jimmy liked his booze ( well I never ). It goes that there was an incident at the LOX plant and Jimmy was the cause. It is alleged He was PNG in Saudi afterwards but Jimmy got the same job in Thumrait. I did recall Jimmy at Thumrait but I did not know him. have you heard anything on this matter in your travels ? And thanks to you also Ted for your reply..

John H

PETERTHEEATER
14-02-2012, 06:14
Helljohn,

see my PM

T-21
18-04-2012, 09:47
I would welcome any details/photos of Dodge trucks from a French contract used by the RAF as oxygen replenishing on Bomber Command stations during World War Two.

Morag
28-05-2012, 20:05
Unit 314 Supply and Transport in Brussels

"29.10.44 2x3 ton vehicles to 424 A.F.A.P. to load and deliver oxygen cylinders to 85 Embarkation Unit, OSTENDE, to reload at OSTENDE and deliver as per instructions Task No.1204-D40."

Cheers!
Morag

ted angus
10-04-2013, 10:37
I would welcome any details/photos of Dodge trucks from a French contract used by the RAF as oxygen replenishing on Bomber Command stations during World War Two.

Just putting the finishing touches. Most pictures show the oxy trucks with the bottle necks to the front, but there is a part shot of one with the necks to the rear in the Wheels of the RAF book by Robertonson; so I have followed that setup.

T-21
11-04-2013, 14:40
Ted , Fantastic is that 1/76th scale ? Particularly like the real photo of the departing Lancaster and the assortment of vehicles . Many thanks.

ted angus
11-04-2013, 15:16
Yes 1/76th, the Dodge truck was from Millicast, But I had to remake the chassis to get the right flatbed hieght the flatbed and cylinder set are from the BW Austin K6 hydrogen cylinder kit. The regulator box from the spares box, the curled pipes - florist wire. the cylinder clamps from plasticard. A real variety in the 1945 shot, 3 Bedford QL troopers which could be built straight from the Airfix box, A commer pre heater van towing the runway caravan availible from MMS. The Tillies are Hillmans,

TED

T-21
12-04-2013, 09:04
Ted, Thanks for the description. The Lancaster KB721 served at RAF Middleton-St-George now Teeside Airport. It flew back to Canada 2.6.45 coded VR:E,419 Squadron. Ted, we need a book on Modelling RAF Vehicles. I have the excellent PSL Gerald Scarborough book but it needs updating and expanding as their is a greater interest in this field .

ted angus
12-04-2013, 10:52
T-21. Yes the station was out in force to wave good bye for its trip accross the pond. I published on both the WW2 National fire service and the post 1948 AFS/CD etc for months they took over my life; Since I left the RAF in 2004 I don't know how I found time to go to work ?? If I live to 130 I might complete about 50% of my current modelling projects and stash so afraid no book from me. Then I have my 1964 ex AFS Austin Gipsy and my 1943 Climax trailer pump ; never enough hours !
you are near Bedford I was born & bred in Sundon Park any where near you. ??

TEd

T-21
12-04-2013, 14:13
Sundon Park is part of Luton to the north . It is now one big housing estate. You must have happy memories of Luton airport ?
In the Lanc photo I could also make out a Humber brake utility,Commer lorry and Dodge 62 carrier. Very interesting amount of vehicles in one photograph.

ted angus
12-04-2013, 15:39
Yes to the north, aged about 11 I used to cycle to Luton Airport and stay the day It was a hard slog but great fun, that would be 1960, before that my Dad would take me on the bus. Yes lots of MT in that shot by Commer you will mean Karrier Bantam ?
TEd

Able Mabel
12-04-2013, 18:51
Nice collection Ted,
I to require more hours in the day.
Nice shot of the gathering of staff as the lancs departed for Canada, you dont often see a collection of vehicles in many photos, maybe just one or two.
Did the bedford OY (OX?) have the same flatbed for Oxygen ?

Ian

ted angus
12-04-2013, 22:01
Hi Ian the OY seems to have just used the normal GS body minus the side& tail boards, I think the Dodge platform was tailor made as the original body platform was very high ?/

I have now seen several pics of the Dodge but only one of a Bedford OY and only one of an Austin K6 hence my choice.
regards TED