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PETERTHEEATER
26-02-2010, 10:36
An aircraft installation intended for spraying chemicals such as mustard gas and phosgene from the air was the SCI or Smoke Curtain Installation. Naturally, at the time, this was a cover.

I found this image in USA NARA of a Havoc laying a 'smoke screen' probably a practice sortie in the use of SCI for CW.

CAPTION:

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l366/PRACHUAP/SmokeScreencaption.jpg

IMAGE

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l366/PRACHUAP/SmokeScreenMarauder.jpg

Peter Kirk
26-02-2010, 13:48
I like the wording of the text. Seems like the A-20 was a war winner. We should have used more of them :)

I am also intruiged by the "important weight of bombs". What is an unimportant weight then?

I wonder how effective smoke laying was in practice.

P Bellamy
26-02-2010, 14:56
20FG at Kingscliffe did infantry support smokescreen-laying trials with P-51D Mustangs. I'll see if I can find a photo of one whipping along at zero feet.

All the best,
PB

OneEighthBit
26-02-2010, 15:11
I think Operation Banquet was the plan to spray the British beaches with chemicals/gas in case of invasion. Most units had a "Banquet Plan" which was a list of personnel who, in the event the plan was put into operation, were to report immediately to certain stations to crew up and undertake the spraying in second-line aircraft.

I learnt all this after finding the plan for Stoke Orchard which had only one hapless chap on the list to report to a bombing station if it all went off! :D

Carnaby
26-02-2010, 16:48
I think Operation Banquet was the plan to spray the British beaches with chemicals/gas in case of invasion.

I suspect it was actually the conversion of training aircraft into bombers, e.g.

AIR 14/1126 "Operation "Banquet": scheme to employ all available training aircraft in defence of UK against invasion 1940 May - Nov.
I note relevant records continue into 1943.

Looks interesting will investigate if the TNA opportunity arises.

There were other 'Operation Banquets' later in WWII, and the Navy had: ADM 1/13530 Operation "Banquet Ceiling": disposal of ammunition, bombs, etc 1942-1943

Graham

PETERTHEEATER
27-02-2010, 07:36
I like the wording of the text. Seems like the A-20 was a war winner. We should have used more of them :)

I am also intruiged by the "important weight of bombs". What is an unimportant weight then?

I wonder how effective smoke laying was in practice.

You forgot the "capable of extreme speed" :-D

P Bellamy
07-09-2013, 14:02
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/401%20pix/FlyingCow-1.jpg

8AF 1st Bomb Division CWS history:


October 1943

The obtaining of the RAF secret bomb, technically designated as SCI type S/L four hundred (400) lbs. Mk.1A, but commonly known as the "Flying Cow", for use by us as a potential Skymarker, was attempted. It was believed that a filling of our smoke munition, "FS", would produce a readily visible smoke trail at high altitudes and serve as a smoke signal for our formations.
The "Cow" filled with "FS" was satisfactory, even at thirty-one thousand (31,000) ft. and after conclusively proving that it was readily adaptable for our release, it was disapproved by the Air Ministry on the grounds that its construction, etc., was of such a secret nature that it would not be used under any circumstances other than Offensive Gas Warfare.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/401%20pix/FlyingCow-2.jpg

PETERTHEEATER
07-09-2013, 14:27
Thanks Paul. I thought that the USAAF would have been looking at ways to eliminate vapour trails at altitude since thay gave a visible signature to the enemy.

But, it does correct my assumption that the 'plane shown in my Post #1 was using smoke for CW practice.

P Bellamy
07-09-2013, 15:28
SCI operation diagrams:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/Brampton%20Grange/SCIM15A.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/Brampton%20Grange/SCIM15B.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/Brampton%20Grange/SCIM15C.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/Brampton%20Grange/SCIM15D.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/Brampton%20Grange/SCIM15E.jpg

Source: AFHRA via 1AD Archive

Alex Brown
07-09-2013, 16:21
I think Operation Banquet was the plan to spray the British beaches with chemicals/gas in case of invasion.

Even in the event of invasion that would presumably have been "illegal"?

Peter Kirk
07-09-2013, 16:26
Even in the event of invasion that would presumably have been "illegal"?

I don't know what the Geneva convention said but I doubt it was a law as such. I always thought chemical weapons were not used by either side for fear of retaliation. Does that sound familiar?

MikeO
07-09-2013, 18:43
The "Powers that Be" in WW2 never forgot the use made of poison gas in WW1, so were determined to retain a retaliatory capacity in case Hitler started to use chemical weapons. At the Lakenheath Bombing range there were certainly two test occasions. The one in Jun 1941 involved Wellingtons from Feltwell - 3 each from 57 and 75 Squadron. The substance sprayed was glycerine-based and had the spraying characteristics of mustard gas.

In October 1943 there was another demonstration at Lakenheath which, if memory serves me, involved several types of aircraft including a Boston.

No doubt there were similar trials elsewhere

Alex Brown
07-09-2013, 22:21
I don't know what the Geneva convention said but I doubt it was a law as such. I always thought chemical weapons were not used by either side for fear of retaliation. Does that sound familiar?

That sounds right, hence why I put illegal in inverted commas! Although I thought the Geneva Convention was technically international law?

I had always assumed that we would have readily used it in retaliation, but it does make you wonder what circumstances would have otherwise been deemed sufficient for us to have used it first... and then what the reaction would have been if we had?

SJT1985
08-09-2013, 19:01
That sounds right, hence why I put illegal in inverted commas! Although I thought the Geneva Convention was technically international law?

I had always assumed that we would have readily used it in retaliation, but it does make you wonder what circumstances would have otherwise been deemed sufficient for us to have used it first... and then what the reaction would have been if we had?

I know this is Wikipedia, so all bets are off, but it's an interesting few lines:



Proposed use against German invasion

During World War II the British planned to use mustard gas and phosgene to help repel a German invasion in 1940-1941,[4][5] and had there been an invasion may have also deployed it against German cities.[6] General Brooke, in command of British anti-invasion preparations of World War II said that he "...had every intention of using sprayed mustard gas on the beaches" in an annotation in his diary.[7] The British manufactured Mustard, chlorine, lewisite, phosgene and Paris Green and stored it at airfields and depots for use on the beaches.[6]

Later plans[edit source]

The mustard gas stockpile was enlarged in 1942-1943 for possible use by Bomber Command against German cities, and in 1944 for possible retaliatory use if German forces used chemical weapons against the D-Day landings.[4]


Obviously the German's didn't use it, so there must have been a major retaliatory fear. Would we have been more hard nosed about it, especially once they were coming down the garden path?

canberra
08-09-2013, 19:29
Yes the use of chemical weapons is illegal under international law, not sure if the Geneva convention specifically deals with it or other conventions. But not all countries in wwii had actually signed and ratified the convention, I don't think Japan had. And slightly off topic, is CS gas classed as a chemical weapon?

SJT1985
08-09-2013, 19:34
Yes the use of chemical weapons is illegal under international law, not sure if the Geneva convention specifically deals with it or other conventions. But not all countries in wwii had actually signed and ratified the convention, I don't think Japan had. And slightly off topic, is CS gas classed as a chemical weapon?

It's an interesting one, I've always seen the careful use of "riot control agent" used for CS.

If they do class them as chemical weapons,I'll be sure to start slagging the RAF for using it on me every year in the chamber!

I've just read a couple of things about CS being illegal to use in warfare...seems the worry is the other side will come back with something nastier!

Alex Brown
08-09-2013, 22:10
I know this is Wikipedia, so all bets are off, but it's an interesting few lines:



Obviously the German's didn't use it, so there must have been a major retaliatory fear. Would we have been more hard nosed about it, especially once they were coming down the garden path?


It's referenced so there must have have been some source...

But it still remains to be seen as to how the intentional community would have have looked upon it... both at the time, and in hindsight...

SJT1985
09-09-2013, 11:52
Hard to tell I guess, the world was at war, people would do what they needed to in order to survive I guess and both sides were expecting the other to use it...

In comparison to Stalin's and Hitler's atrocities against mankind into the millions, gassing an invasion party statistically probably wouldn't look too bad, especially to the allies and the people of Britain fighting to keep them out... Morally, though, I guess we end up like this Syrian situation where no-one cares about tens of thousands dead in conventional attacks, but 1400 dead by chemical is a whole different ball game...

I know it's not technically CW, but where did the world stand on the use of Napalm during WW2 and in Vietnam? It took until the 80s before the UN decided it was a bit too nasty for war...

canberra
11-09-2013, 17:05
Ive just looked on wiki and according to it napalm wasn't invented until 1943, and it was invented in the USA. Again according to wiki it was only used in Europe. The Geneva convention apparently says that the use of it against civilians is a war crime.

And on the subject of aerial spraying we had the Boscombe Down Hunter come to Cranwell one day and it sprayed the cadets on the north airfield.

Paul Francis
11-09-2013, 18:35
Surprised no one has mentioned Agent Orange and its legacy?

WJT
11-09-2013, 22:09
That's a whole new perspective on 'spraying'. I suppose with the topicality of events in Syria, we have had in mind the spraying of nerve agents (eg, Sarin).

We could of course also discuss the military spraying of herbicides (ie, for defoliation [Operation Ranchand?]) and insecticides (eg DDT for malaria control).

SJT1985
12-09-2013, 20:04
That's a whole new perspective on 'spraying'. I suppose with the topicality of events in Syria, we have had in mind the spraying of nerve agents (eg, Sarin).

We could of course also discuss the military spraying of herbicides (ie, for defoliation [Operation Ranchand?]) and insecticides (eg DDT for malaria control).

On RAF FORUMS theres a picture from the Grapple tests of an Auster spraying DDT pretty much on the encampment to control flies. They were saying on there that the pilot used to buzz the tents really low level first to let people know he was there and to go and get out of the way, as it was really horrible stuff to try and get off if you were hit with it...

I wonder if that ever got recorded on everyone's FMED 4 or equivalent?

The pic's nearish the bottom http://rafforum.activeboard.com/t11717555/atomic-bomb-tests/?page=4&sort=oldestFirst

John Anderson
12-09-2013, 22:47
In 1976/79 I lived in Al Khobar, Saudi Arabia and the town was sprayed by a crop spraying type aircraft monthly with what we understood was DDT. No choice, not nice!

canberra
13-09-2013, 08:18
The only r grave from wwii in Saudi Arabia is from an airman killed on an anti locust spraying operation.

PETERTHEEATER
13-09-2013, 08:43
In 1976/79 I lived in Al Khobar, Saudi Arabia and the town was sprayed by a crop spraying type aircraft monthly with what we understood was DDT. No choice, not nice!

I was there too. Cieba Geigy had a pest control contract with the KSA Government. Fortunately we lived on-base so could watch the spraying over Al Thuqba from the front door of the Armoury in the south Annex of Hangar 200. They flew from the ramp directly opposite. Had you not mentioned it I might never have remembered!

P Bellamy
19-01-2014, 01:34
"Flying Cow" image added to Post No.7 (http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?4106-Spraying-from-the-air&p=131622&viewfull=1#post131622).