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Peter
23-04-2008, 15:46
Does anyone know what is happeneing on the other side of the airfield from the terminal? Google Earth shows demolition of the bomb dump and some nearby dispersal pans?

Phlyer
24-04-2008, 22:58
suprised that you actually need to ask this question, as its only been 14 years or so in the planning. Its the opening stages of a freight terminal development, and is part of Peels overall plan part of which is the new terminal building, new hotels and facilities.

For anyone interested there's now about 50 detailed drawings etc on the Stockton BC website showing the whole south side development,
including the new acccess road, fencing, buildings, landscaping, etc.

http://www.planningwam.stockton.gov.uk/ ... 8/0728/FUL (http://www.planningwam.stockton.gov.uk/WAM133/showCaseFile.do?appType=planning&appNumber=08/0728/FUL)

look for the associated documents tab once you've found the application to see the
actual drawings)

Paul Francis
01-06-2008, 21:26
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/midd6.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/midd20.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/midd19.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/midd15.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/midd14.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/midd5.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/midd4.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/midd1.jpg

A few pics of Middleton St George

Stevo
02-06-2008, 14:13
Hi

According to Paul's Photobucket site these where taken in 1981.

Paul are the 20 pics on your photo site all the ones you have of Middleton St George, theres a few buildings I'd be interested to see pics of that arent there anymore or have changed so much.

I think I ask you a while back, if you had the B1 Hanger but I think you said no, and the Electronics Building which is now part of the Terminal I think you also said you didnt take a picture of that.

I'm not at home now so I dont have the building list to hand, but the Guardroom and theres a white building on the very left edge of the Station HQ photo I think that was a Chapel do you have pics of these?

;)

Paul Francis
02-06-2008, 14:24
All I have is another shot of the workshop, another of the tower, the gym - several of that and thats it. I cannot think what I was thinking back then I remember the B1 too

Stevo
02-06-2008, 14:33
The Gym?, I think that was near the Oak tree pub outside the main airport boundary? long since demolished if it was. Can you post one up of it, please, if possible.

The B1 has been stripped of its skin for years now and had a massive new section of steelwork added to one side of it, but its been sat like that for years. I think it was going to be a Leisure center

It's still best to have the photos you have rather than none at all though.

Stevo ;)

Peter
02-06-2008, 14:37
!981, ok thanks. I remember going back there in 1996 and having a look inside the air raid shelter that was beside the larger hangar in the photo. There was also an air raid shelter in front of the Officiers mess which is now a hotel but sadly the shelter has been removed during the construction?

Stevo
02-06-2008, 14:43
Also Paul, in your book it says something like 'Middleton st george was one of the first operational station to have a Type J', that would mean then its one of the oldest examples?

:wink:

Paul Francis
02-06-2008, 14:59
Yes Stevo, the last C and the first J.

Stevo
02-06-2008, 15:50
Interesting, shame it was caught in another change and only got 2 T2 and a B1, You can see that the design of the station was laid out like Leeming and Topcliffe and it should have had another 3 J-types. Would have looked much different if it had received them.

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww195/ACGimages/Misc/DTV01.jpg

Stevo ;)

Stevo
24-06-2008, 01:03
Here's some pictures I took a long time ago (about 8 years some about 4 years ago), long before I knew what any of these where and with a really rubbish digital camera. Almost all where taken on the fly from a car window.

But I thought I'd post them up as I have the drawing numbers.

Guardhouse, 494-7/38 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.515428&lon=-1.437918&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/Guard-House.jpg

Sgnt's Mess & Quarters (170), 11525/39 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51614 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.516146&lon=-1.435669&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/firecenter1.jpg

Station HQ, 1723/36 MG178 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51526 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.515269&lon=-1.43475&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/firecenter6.jpg

Barrack Block 8-84, 1132/38 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51747 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.517477&lon=-1.431065&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DSCF0008.jpg

Squash Court, 16583/40 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51390 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.513904&lon=-1.433761&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/Squash.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/Squash2.jpg

Workservices, 15975/39 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51495 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.514958&lon=-1.432596&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/WorksService_01.jpg

Central Heating Chamber, Type 2A, 16004/39 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51477 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.514771&lon=-1.431391&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DSCF0072.jpg

Armoury, 7616/37 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51465 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.514658&lon=-1.430715&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DSCF0073.jpg

Workshops, 6958/37 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51465 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.514658&lon=-1.430715&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DSCF0074.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DSCF0082.jpg

Brake Parachute Store, 12651/51 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51402 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.514024&lon=-1.429873&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DSCF0079.jpg

Parachute Store, 6351/37 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51362 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.513628&lon=-1.430595&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DSCF0080.jpg

Articulated Trailer Shed, 6879/37 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51426 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.514268&lon=-1.432974&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/ArticTrailerShed.jpg

Electronics Building, MSG/1825/63 Now used as part of the terminal, althought it looks very different to this now, you cant see any if it anymore. http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51204 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.512041&lon=-1.433793&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/EES.jpg

Watch Office, 5845/39 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51326 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51326&lon=-1.427508&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/tower.jpg

Nissen, Crew Rest Room MG305 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51423 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.514239&lon=-1.427644&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DSCF0006.jpg

FRA Hangar and remaining Nissen Hut (photo by Rob Brittain)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/039_DR.jpg

Aircraft Hangar, Type T.2, 3632/43 (photo by Rob Brittain) http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51536 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51536&lon=-1.42638&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/036_DR.jpg

Aircraft Hangar, Type T.2, 3632/43 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51584 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.515846&lon=-1.428587&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/Hangerold2.jpg

Central Armoury, 2041/54 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51649 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.516499&lon=-1.425804&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/aircargocenter2.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/CARGO5.jpg

Line Party Hut, MSG/1786/62 (now Demolished) http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51681 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.516816&lon=-1.425431&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/HUT2END.jpg

The following photos where taken from me by a guy who was having flying lessons at the airport, it was about 5 years ago, and I only remember his name was Chris. These are copyright Chris, but where taken for me.

Aircraft Shed "C" 5533/39 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51252 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.512529&lon=-1.430546&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DCP_0756.jpg

Aircraft Shed "J" 5836/39 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51304 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.513048&lon=-1.429084&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DCP_0757.jpg

Sqn & flight Offices, Seco, 11613/59 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51522 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.515229&lon=-1.426021&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/Hanger3_06.jpg

Aircraft Hangar, Type T.2, 3632/43 http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.51537 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.515378&lon=-1.426333&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/Hanger3_07.jpg

Aircraft Hangar, Type T.2, 3632/43
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/Hanger3_12.jpg

Missile servicing area (all demolished) http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.50620 ... =0&src=msl (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.506201&lon=-1.427968&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl)
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DCP_0783.jpg

Stevo ;)

NJR
29-07-2008, 19:24
After a brief stop at Thornaby on the 26th July, Middleton St George was the next "target", a few photos below. Again only a quick visit but it was nice to see some intact expansion period buildings.

Station HQ

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008056.jpg

Mounted prop outside the sergeants quarters and mess

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008029.jpg

Water tower and works services

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008041.jpg

One of the T2 hangars, there is also a "J" and a "C".

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008033.jpg

Various views of the memorial which can be found outside the former officers mess, now a hotel

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008045.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008044.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008048.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008047.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/ryan7480_bucket/TeesideSaturday26thJuly2008043.jpg

More here:

http://oldairfields.fotopic.net/c1552748.html

NJR

Paul Francis
05-02-2009, 19:11
Wow its such a Scheme 'M' station, it almost hurts!

Stevo
05-02-2009, 20:28
I like M scheme stations

Two of the 8/84 Barrack blocks where demolished on my last visit here must be at least a year maybe more now, haven't been since then. The Barrack blocks and Institute are own by Affinity Health Care. According to my Aunt who works in mental health there is a new hospital there now she escorted a patient there only the other day.

It's these (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.516071&lon=-1.433349&z=19.1&r=0&src=msl) 2 which are gone.

;)

Stevo
06-02-2009, 02:32
It actually looks like all the barrack blocks could have been demolished looking at the new Google Earth roll back feature. Four and a half of them are gone it says the aerial was taken in June 2006, but it was later than that possibly late 2007.

Image copyright Google Earth

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/Other/MSG.jpg

;)

Prezzie
02-03-2009, 15:20
Hi:-))

I last visited Middleton St George in June 2005 when they did the unveiling of Andrew Mynarski VC Memorial, typical !! it rained during the ceremony but stopped after it was concluded, later !! the Lancaster of the BBMF did a fly bye, I never seen the Lancaster do the acrobatic rolls it did that day, highly impressed.

Prezzie

JDCAVE
06-04-2009, 16:22
Hello all...I'm a first time poster. This is a very informative website. My father was with 419 Squadron at MSG, Sept 1944-April 1945 and completed a tour with the squadron. I visited the airfield in 1994 and saw a number of buildings their, including the officers mess. I have a number of wartime photos of the base, including some taken by my father at the officers mess. I also have some RCAF photos taken on the base during the war, including one colour one. While I notice that there are photos posted up there, I cannot figure out how to post any of my own.

Jim

Stevo
06-04-2009, 16:42
Hi Jim

With this airfield being my local I would be very interested to see the pictures you have. To post on this site you need to use photobucket. See this link for photobucket information http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/image-posting-t28.html

Regards

Stevo ;)

JDCAVE
06-04-2009, 18:52
A/C R.A. McBurney with Cardinal Jean-Marie-Rodrigue Villeneuve, G/C Hal Miles and Father Paul Nicole watch aircraft take off for Cologne. October 28, 1944. Image provided by Canadian National Defence Image Library and is not restricted by Copyright.
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/JDCAVE/PL33804McBurneyVillenuveTakeoff.jpg
PL 2513 Lancaster Aircraft on Ground 3/4 port Apr 15, 1944. Note that the Port main wheel looks to be stuck in a rut, just off the runway. I believe I have identified the aircraft as KB-731 from a black and white photo, destined to go down over Cambrai, June 12-13, 1944. Can anyone identify the hangers, etc. in the background?
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/JDCAVE/PC-2513sLancXColour.jpg

PL44276: This is KB 762, the same image as shown in Lanc at War volume 1. Note that this image is much better contrast and the Noseart is more visible. Can anyone identify for me the church in the background?
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/JDCAVE/PL44276KB762JJiggDispersal.jpg

My father's photos are at home and I will post these later on.

Jim

Stevo
06-04-2009, 21:04
Hi

Those are great photos, like the second one with the Hangars in the background, those are the Type C and Type J Hangars that are still at Middleton St George (Durham Tees Valley Airport) http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.512777,-1.429988&spn=0.002314,0.006866&t=h&z=18

Type C Aircraft Shed
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DCP_0756.jpg

Type J Aircraft Shed
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/3DImages/RAF%20Middleton%20St%20George/DCP_0757.jpg

The only church it could thats close enough is this one http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.499426,-1.436672&spn=0.001157,0.003433&t=h&z=19.

Stevo ;)

JDCAVE
06-04-2009, 22:03
Thanks Steve. Very interesting information on both the hangars and the church. The two level building structure shown on Google maps is consistent with the photo, but the tower seems to be either since removed or obscured somehow. Zooming out shows the likely location of the dispersal pan on which J-Jigg was situated.

Dad flew J-Jigg on a number of occassions, including his first op, to Bergen, October 4, 1944.

Below is a photo of one of the Hangars at MSG, probably August, 1944, when the King, Queen Mum and Princess Elizabeth visited the station. Image is again provided by Canadian National Defence Image Library and is not restricted by Copyright.
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/JDCAVE/719-IMG0003.jpg

Jim

JDCAVE
07-04-2009, 06:02
Officer's Mess Middleton St. George April 1945
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/JDCAVE/OfficersMessMiddletonGeorge.jpg

F/Lt Cave and F/Lt Collard. Officer's Mess Middleton St. George April 1945
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/JDCAVE/CaveandCollard419Squadron.jpg

Jim

Richard Flagg
11-01-2010, 18:37
From David Thompson;


Work on Skylink is due to start
in the Spring and a new boundary fence has already been put up for the
South Side Development although building of the new access road has
already been delayed once .



Plan layout for the airport works can be seen at
http://www.planningwam.stockton.gov.uk/WAM133/doc/Drawing-29858.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=29858&location=VOLUME1&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

Plan layout for Skylink can be seen at
http://www.peel.co.uk/peelholdings/property/businessparks/Skylinkv3AW.pdf

Richard Flagg
11-01-2010, 18:44
Images of the snow clearance at DTV, link from David Thompson

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/tees/hi/tv_and_radio/newsid_8446000/8446011.stm

Richard Flagg
22-01-2010, 17:24
From David Thompson


After a long slog, Durham Police are now ready to issue the 'Durham Tees Valley Aviation Watch' ID cards.

Anyone wanting an Enthusiast ID card, please send an email to EMAIL REMOVED

Once I've received your email, I'll send by return the covering letter and the application form.

Please note that these cards are for ID purposes only and confer no special rights of way at any airfield. They can be used at other airfields as a means of ID which can be checked by Police/Security simply by phoning Durham Police at DTVA who will hold the applications on file.

David Thompson
22-01-2010, 19:13
Thanks to REF for posting that for me . I should explain that local avaition enthusiasts have been co-operating with the airport authority for some time now to establish an Airport-watch Scheme and it has finally been given the go ahead . The cards give the owner no special rights of access or permission to go airside and is just a form of personal identification . Access around the airport is not as restricted as others in the UK and given the hightened security situation it was thought to be a good idea for people , even like ourselves , who often frequent the airport or the roads nearby looking for good spotting or photography vantage points . The card carries a contact telephone number so that any breaches of security , theft etc can be reported immediately to the authorities . I think other airports may operate similar schemes to this ? If anyone would like the contact email to apply for a card - only valid at DTVA - pm me and I can put you in touch .

David Thompson
22-06-2010, 17:19
New owners announced for Teesside Airport ;

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/8232142.Canadian_company_buys_Durham_Tees_Valley_A irport_stake/

David Thompson
15-10-2010, 20:45
Another nail in the coffin of Teesside Airport . Unsurprisingly it is the lead story in both the local press and on the BBC regional television news .

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/8454531.Airport_introduces___6_charge_to_users/

David Thompson
06-06-2011, 10:40
Reunion report from The Northern Echo ;

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9066857.Survivors_pay_tribute_to_sacrifice_of_airm en/

Richard Flagg
31-10-2011, 12:56
My one and only visit to Middleton St George was on 7 November 2003, I was working for European Aviation Air Charter at the time and we brought some troops back from RAF Akrotiri. We arrived on G-BDXH and just after the troops had got off a RAF VC-10 arrived. The KLM Fokker was also parked up as well.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/20031107MiddletonStGeorge2-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/20031107MiddletonStGeorge4-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/20031107MiddletonStGeorge5-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/20031107MiddletonStGeorge8-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/20031107MiddletonStGeorge1-1.jpg

Richard Flagg
14-12-2011, 15:46
Taken from Gazette Live:
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-breaking-news//2011/12/14/durham-tees-valley-airport-to-be-sold-84229-29952617/?campaign=Gazettelive_email_gazette-live-email%3A201112


Durham Tees Valley Airport to be sold

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/ALL%20OTHER%20PHOTOS/AiX%20miscellaneous/durham-tees-valley-airport-224011440.jpg

DURHAM Tees Valley Airport is to be sold - prompting fears by one local MP that it could ultimately close.

Owner Peel Airports has today announced its plans to sell the facility.

And James Wharton said he has already raised concerns over the situation with the Government.

The Stockton South MP - who has campaigned to see the airport’s future secured - has raised the issue with Transport Minister Theresa Villiers.

"I have explained to her the importance Teesside airport to our sub-regional economy and my concerns about any sale that could eventually lead to closure," the Conservative MP said.

"She, and the Department for Transport, are now aware of the situation and will be following matters closely."

The announcement comes just days after the Gazette revealed fears have been raised over the future of the airport after councils were ordered to find £4.3m to retain their current stake.

Local authorities on Teesside were told they were to face an ultimatum from majority owner Peel to either pay the cash or face a reduction in their shareholdings.

Peel had informed Stockton Council of its intention to serve a "dilution notice", which would mean the councils’ shareholding would be reduced unless the authorities agreed to proportionately match investments made by Peel. The combined investment for the authorities would add up to £4.3m.

The most recent figures for 2010-11 put the airport’s losses at £2m-plus.

And Mr Wharton added today: "This news explains why Peel has refused to comment on speculation about the airport’s future - it is a worrying development and indicates it is no longer focussed on turning it around.

"Peel has a track record, having presided over the closure of Sheffield Airport which has since been turned into an industrial estate, we must ensure our local airport cannot be cast aside in the same way."

Richard Flagg
16-12-2011, 11:57
News received via David Thompson



PAL are going to sell their 75% shares of DTVA. It is business as usual at DTVA and we are actively looking and speaking to potential buyers to take over DTV and run it as an Airport. The current operator is speaking to all stakeholders including MPís on this and we really need to send a positive message that we are operating and will continue to operate DTV as a regional airport.

Smoggieboy
05-02-2012, 14:45
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/scan0001-3.jpg

Taken approx 1982ish ? when on a visit with the Teesside Aviation Society, sorry don't know which hangar.

Smoggieboy
05-02-2012, 18:34
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/scan0030-1.jpg

The terminal taken at a show in early 80's, poss 83/84ish

Richard Flagg
06-02-2012, 16:02
Nice pic, whats the aircraft on the right of the photo?? Looks Russian..

Smoggieboy
06-02-2012, 17:54
Think it may have been an Aviogenex ? TU 134 poss ?

Richard Flagg
21-02-2012, 11:11
An undated photo of Middleton St George. AiX-ARG Archives

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/ALL%20OTHER%20PHOTOS/AiX-ARG%20Archives/scan0045-1.jpg

David Thompson
05-09-2012, 18:23
Hopefully some good news for the airport for once !

A new support group for Durham Tees Valley Airport has been launched by a local group of aviation enthusiasts and supporters of 'Teesside Airport' to be run in conjunction with the airport management . Details here ;
http://www.fodtva.co.uk/

A detailed log of airport movements can be found here ;
http://www.dtvmovements.co.uk/index.html

Smoggieboy
09-12-2012, 23:41
Found a few old airshows pics

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/scan0017_zps182e0591.jpg
This one was from an old 126 print, believe the Jordanian Falcons were using Pitts this year.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0021_zpsdd3b808d.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0019_zps5421f3b1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0020_zps49b62ba9.jpg

tigger
10-12-2012, 10:48
A couple of photos from inside the St George Hotel yesterday:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6969.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6968.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6967.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6966.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6963.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6964.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6965.jpg

Smoggieboy
16-12-2012, 18:56
Found a few more old airshow pics

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0026_zpse8c9bed0.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0028_zps3b68a7f2.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0030_zpsf65b0d3f.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0033_zpsc72f98bf.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0032_zpsd8725ec2.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEES%20AIRSHOW/scan0031_zps21dc5442.jpg

ianbache
16-12-2012, 19:15
Very nice smoggleboy, love the Mossie, doesnt the Hunter look like a proper aircraft
Regards Ian

Smoggieboy
16-12-2012, 21:07
Believe this was many years ago for a memorial unveiling ?
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/ScannedImage-6-3.jpg

tigger
17-12-2012, 16:20
A few more from last week that don't duplicate other peoples photos.

Ambulance garage & mortuary
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7086.jpg

The doors are about a foot thick
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7087.jpg

Watch office
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7064.jpg

Second BHQ
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6980.jpg

Pilbox (modified type 23) (will be in the next eDoB overlay update)
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT6972.jpg

Stanton Shelter (will be in the next eDoB overlay update)
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7054.jpg

Richard Flagg
17-12-2012, 19:20
excellent set tigger, the Ambulance Garage doesn't look like its long for this world.

tigger
17-12-2012, 20:13
excellent set tigger, the Ambulance Garage doesn't look like its long for this world.

The bulk of the sick quarters site is in a worse state except the decontamination block. All very overgrown.

Haven't really looked through my MStG photos properly yet as the 450 I took overnight after leaving there have occupied me.

A few more random photos of that area.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7084.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7105.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7103.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7085.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7095.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/trunktemp/Airfields/MStG/_ILT7108.jpg

bsso78
30-01-2013, 01:23
Hello chaps, first post on here and have just found the site. Some really interesting photos of the airport,ive lived in Middleton St George all my life and have some good memories of events and happenings around the airport. In reply to the previous post, things arent as bad as the last set of pics show. These pics are of what until a couple of years ago was called Lancaster house and was a private dwelling, i dont know what happened to the owners but it was up for sale around 10 years ago and i considered buying it. I was there a few months ago and local halfwit youths appear to have all but destoyed the place but i think its still got a few years left in it yet.I know much of the surrounding countryside and some of the landmarks around the airport site so if there are any photos any forum members would like to see let me know and i will be happy to help

norfolkred1
30-01-2013, 08:26
RAF Middleton St George was an overspill quarters for Catterick for my Dads final post before Civvy Street beckoned in 1972. The RAF camp had gone civvy by then with only the NAAFI shop left next to the Pub and the odd Building on the Airport itself. MT coaches took the Airmen to Catterick to work every morning with them knackered old Vauxhall Busses. Nice little Camp . I was surprised to see that they changed the road names for some reason, then again First Ave, Second Ave and Third Ave were not that original. Rumour has it there are plans to have and Air display again this year which would be nice to see

Smoggieboy
02-02-2013, 17:28
Teesside's details from Jan 1982

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/SCARECROW450/TEESSIDE_zpsaced553e.jpg

Peter
27-02-2013, 17:01
Does anyone know which were the 419 squadron dispersals at MSG?

Navigator
01-06-2013, 01:06
Hi, this is my first post on the forum. Just to say a big thank you for all the fascinating photos and research put up concerning this airfield. Taking part on a firefighting course here for a week got me intrigued about its history and this website was a wealth of useful information. I've added some photos showing the temporary asbestos pre-fabs erected during WW2 on the taxiways as accommodation for the flight crews. The only reason it is still in situ is because of the high costs associated with asbestos removal. These buildings are all located within the burning ground used for fire fighting training.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_104155.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_104155.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_102138.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_102138.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101855.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101855.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101839.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101839.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101814.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101814.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101759.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101759.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101737.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101737.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101709.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101709.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/leehigson/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101650.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/leehigson/media/Middleton%20St%20Georges%20Airfield/20130411_101650.jpg.html)

Another Number
01-06-2013, 07:17
Are these prefabs not the 1950s ones built when the built the V-Bomber dispersal?

PETERTHEEATER
01-06-2013, 08:15
Those are Uni-Seco Huts but what era I know not.

The H&S regulations concerning 'asbestos' are questionable but I suspect the cost of reviewing to relax the conditions would be considered expensive and the regs will stay as they are.

David Thompson
04-06-2013, 12:13
Both Another Number and PETERTHEEATER are correct as to the type of hut and their use . They are very interesting to look around with many of the fixtures and fittings still in place . These include toilet and washroom fittings , kitchen and messing and even the remains of a bar !

David Thompson
06-06-2013, 19:18
It is the annual Middleton St George Memorial Association reunion this weekend with an outdoor service and parade being held on Saturday 8 June , 10:30 for a 10:45 kick-off outside the St George Hotel . All welcome with tea and biscuits and a public bar afterwards in the hotel plus a display of memorabilia .
Thank you

Richard Flagg
02-07-2013, 00:26
Some photos of the 8th June RCAF Re-union at Middleton St George, all photos taken by David Thompson and he will add some further information shortly.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P6081691.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P6081710.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P6081720.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P6081729.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P6081758.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P6081796.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P6081805.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P6081834.jpg

David Thompson
02-07-2013, 09:22
Thanks Richard . There was a good turn out for this years reunion and the sun shone which made a nice change from last year when it poured down throughout the service and parade ! It was nice too to see the past , present and future represented by Lieutenant Colonel Art Agnew of the RCAF , Squadron Leader Donnelly from RAF Leeming and the cadets and staff from 405 (Darlington) Squadron ATC who also provided the band .

The St George Hotel provides a fitting background for the annual service with the Mynarski statue towering above everyone whilst at the same time seemingly keeping an eye on the proceedings ! There was a buffet afterwards in the hotel and the chance for the veterans to re-live a few memories of what had gone on here some seventy years ago and for others to just listen and soak up the atmosphere .
Same place , same time next year . All welcome !

Peter
08-08-2013, 13:51
From Mark Chandler.. One of the Admins of the Save Middleton St George group:

Middleton St. George - Goosepool - Teesside Airport - Durham Tees Valley Airport; no matter which name you know this aerodrome by, its function and purpose has remained basically unchanged: Service to the peoples of the free world in war, and to the peoples of these islands and beyond in peace.

Built as an 'expansion period' Class A Bomber Airfield covering an area of 748 acres, and opened on 5th January 1941, from that day until the war ended in May 1945, MSG was in the front line of Bomber Command operations. Initially she was home to the Whitley and Halifax Squadrons and Conversion Flights of No. 4 Group, until being passed to No. 6 (RCAF) Group on 1st January 1943. What took place here, if recorded in full, would equal the Encyclopaedia Britannica in length and volumes. Suffice it to say, men and women from the four corners of the globe came here to fly, fight - and often die - for our freedom. Her reputation is second to none; the memories of comradeship, courage and sacrifice she engendered undying... Post-War, she served on in 'uniform' providing a home for RAF Squadrons and units in numbers far too great to detail here; until the RAF finally said goodbye on 17th April 1964. This despite being classed as a Master Diversion Airfield and being the recipient of vast amounts of money and a major civil engineering project to bring her to that standard.

She was then transferred, with the aid of 'Government Departments' and assistance from the local authorities, to civil use. Since then, she has provided a vital airport facility to the North East; homes for many businesses of a variety of descriptions - all vital to the local economy - and, important to all who have, do, or will attend the Annual Reunion of Nos. 419, 420 and 428 Squadrons, RCAF - The St. George Hotel.Now, amid claims that passenger through-put has declined to uneconomical levels and yet other claims that the land should be cleared and developed for housing, The Peel Group wish to eradicate this jewel in the crown of RAF/RCAF/Civil Aviation history.

It is clear we are not minded to allow this to happen without a fight. Shaun Wilkinson - himself the owner of a business with its home at MSG - has created this page to attract and rally like-minded people, no matter where in the world they reside, to discuss, plan and share ideas which will become our fighting strategy for the future. To that end, we welcome you to this Group and invite you to contribute freely your ideas for the salvation of, memories and passion for Middleton St.George. If we stay cool-headed, focused and determined, who knows what we might achieve...

David Thompson
06-09-2013, 22:02
I seem to remember when it was opened it was always referred to as a rail-halt rather than a railway station which it certainly is not ! Sadly it's decline is mirrored by the airport itself - nuff said !

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/the-northerner/2013/aug/26/teesside-airport-forgotten-railway-station

John Anderson
29-10-2013, 14:36
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-24724265

Depressing.

David Thompson
29-10-2013, 20:10
More of the same bad news here . Very depressing ;

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10770728.MPs_raise_concerns_about_loss_of_charter_ flights_from_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport/

Strange how a local MP thinks that by 'scaling down the airport for the time being may protect its longer term future' ! We'll see tomorrow when Peel set out their vision for the future operation of the airport .

David Thompson
14-11-2013, 10:57
A Master Plan to 'save' the airport has been drawn up by Peel and will go out to 'limited' public consultation ;

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10807005.Housing_at_heart_of_Durham_Trees_Valley_A irport_blueprint_for_future/

On the opposite page of the Northern Echo was this quite appropriate story ;

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10807077.Loss_making_airports_sold_for___1__but_wi ll_to_see_them_survive_is_out_there/

50sqnwop/ag
14-11-2013, 16:22
I'd like to know where all these people for these potential new and cramped and shoddily built homes will get employment as there's bugger all up 'ere!.....

David Thompson
15-11-2013, 09:22
Worth a look and airfield plan has a zoom facility ;

http://dtva-master-plan.co.uk/wp-content/plugins/wp-imagezoom/zoom.php?id=tLKYQ

PETERTHEEATER
04-12-2013, 10:04
Middleton was one of a few airfields that had extra Fuzed Bomb and Spare Bomb Stores located outside of the original bomb store area to reduce the travelling time from and to dispersals. The two indicated here would have been built as part of the original bomb store and are probably to AM Drawing 5416/40 HE Bomb Store.

Both were at the end of a cul-de-sac road from the perimeter track giving inefficient access.

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.505961&lon=-1.44105&z=19&r=0&src=msa


http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=54.507809&lon=-1.439015&z=19&r=0&src=msa

jason
28-12-2013, 20:06
Has anyone any idea as to what the condition of the later Bomb store is on the southern side of the airfield? Also, any pictures of this area.

superplum
28-12-2013, 22:26
Has anyone any idea as to what the condition of the later Bomb store is on the southern side of the airfield? Also, any pictures of this area.

Are you referring to the old missile storage area (GE shows it as demolished) or the open bay bomb storage? The only remnant appears to be a fuzing point.

jason
30-12-2013, 13:12
This is the area i was thinking about.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk20/Cavboy80/Cavboy80006/mIDDLETON_zps40ddd12e.jpg (http://s276.photobucket.com/user/Cavboy80/media/Cavboy80006/mIDDLETON_zps40ddd12e.jpg.html)

David Thompson
31-12-2013, 13:58
The 'white' areas are were the Air to Air Guided Missile Storage and Testing Site stood up until c2010 when it was all demolished . I am unsure when this facility was built but Middleton St George underwent a huge expansion in 1958 to accommodate 'fast jets' and I suspect it was built then together with the V-Bomber dispersal area ?

The missile site was built were the original wartime bomb store store stood and several features of this still survive today including some loading bays , blast wall traverses and one semi-sunken covered fuzing point but they are all well overgrown . You can see the loading area clearly on Google Earth , above the airfields southern boundary and the fuzing point is slightly up and to the right from there . Sorry but I can't but WTP or GE screen shots in ! There is an aerial view of part of this area in Post #13 .

This area is part of the proposed south side development and if the Peel Master Plan goes ahead it will all be demolished .

Richard Flagg
20-01-2014, 20:40
Update from David Thompson;

The new hangar for the Police ASU Eurocopter and is being built between Hangars 1 and 2

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P1193015.jpg
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P1193016.jpg

David Thompson
20-01-2014, 22:56
Thanks Rich

This 'prefab shed' is going up between Hangar 1 , the C Type and Hangar 2 the J Type and should be completed by the spring .

At the moment the police ASU , air support unit , pull their Eurocopter into Hangar 1 for maintenance or in the event of very bad weather but Sycamore Aviation , an aircraft recycling company , are in there and space can be a bit limited at times .

Richard Flagg
22-01-2014, 23:49
A couple more from David;

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P1193063.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/Flyer719/DURHAM/Middleton%20St%20George/P1193027.jpg

David Thompson
23-01-2014, 00:12
Thanks again Richard .

The first photo is of the recently re-painted control tower , the view of which is sadly spoilt by the tractor park . These were originally kept between Hangars 1 and 2 but had to be moved when the new prefab hangar went up !

The second photo shows one of the recently arrived ATR-42's which is being recycled/scrapped/parted-out by Sycamore Aviation inside Hangar 1 .

David Thompson
28-01-2014, 17:02
As one albeit small hangar goes up another entirely bigger one comes down ! This is Hangar 5 , a B1 , which was heavily modified in preparation of its conversion into a hotel but the project never took off although hundreds of thousands of pounds must have been spent on trying to realise the dream and the site has laid dormant for probably twenty years or more ;

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/10966193.Airport_starts_re_development_work/

Peter
12-02-2014, 02:18
And a second hangar comes down.... :(

David Thompson
12-02-2014, 17:30
Yes , this week it's Hangar 4 , a 1943 T2 which is coming down .
Apparently it has been declared beyond economic repair and is being sold for scrap .

The remaining three original hangars are ;
1) C-Type used by Sycamore Aviation for aircraft recycling/parting-out/scrapping
2) J-Type used by TNT as a logistics hub
3) T2 divided into two with the east side being used by the Great North Air Ambulance and the west side by based light aircraft

plus Hangar 360 used by Cobham Aviation and now the new 'shed' for the police helicopter between H1 and H2 .

Tony H
22-02-2014, 11:45
I hope these three images might be of interest to the "MSG" thread?

15835 15836 15837

Kind Regards

Tony H

Stevo
22-02-2014, 13:48
Yes , this week it's Hangar 4 , a 1943 T2 which is coming down .

Thats a shame....I read in one of Norwichpaul's documents, I think Oakington, that the first Type A T2 was built at MSG, so one would assume the second was built at the same time.....I wonder which one was the first??

;-)

mawganmad
22-02-2014, 16:07
Nice shots, thanks Tony

Tony H
22-02-2014, 17:19
Thanks MawganMad

The image is of "Halifax 1&2" - two x 78 Sqn crewed Merlin's overflying Goosepool/MSG/Tees-side/DTV back in 2010

78 Sqn were based at "MSG" twice during their service in 4 Gp and this was the first official non landing "visit" since then . . .

Sadly probably the last, given the disbandment later this year :(

Tony H

jason
22-02-2014, 21:22
Cracking set of photos Tony, i'm planning on getting up to MSG later this year.

David Thompson
27-03-2014, 23:01
This years annual Middleton St George Memorial Association reunion takes place over the weekend of 30 May - 1 June based in the
St George Hotel .
The outdoor service and parade takes place around the memorial and Mynarski statue on Saturday 31 May . All welcome with a bun fight and public bar afterwards in the hotel , kick-off is 10:30 .

50sqnwop/ag
28-03-2014, 11:02
78 is going bye byes already? who's getting the merlins, 28 or the flying fish lot? or will some foreign country get them for peanuts like the Harriers?:wink:

David Thompson
17-04-2014, 22:25
It is 87 pages long and is no doubt very typical of these things but appears to be of great substance yet delivers very little ;

http://dtva-master-plan.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/DTVA-Master-plan.pdf

Edit ; perhaps a wrong choice of words as I hope it delivers a great deal but 2020 is still a long way off and I fear that even our too few commercial flights may have gone by then ?