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ferny
02-10-2011, 09:13
Hi all

A few question re the above.

When did they go out of service?

How many in the crew ?

Where they ever painted green/black?

TIA

Jon.

canberra
02-10-2011, 09:24
Yes they were painted green during the towndown period of the seventies and early eighties. The ones at Gutersloh were painted green and black for a while. Crew was 2/3 altough there were 4 seats. As for going out of service, Leuchars still had them in 2000.

Jenna
02-10-2011, 10:16
Green/black paintwork was also extended to the special services vehicles (date not relevant), the guy you need to talk to for TACR info is Clive Westwood at The Six Appeal Wheel Group.

Please join the forum as more contacts and more members help the group to save the vehicles. http://www.thesixappealwheelgroup.org/

ted angus
02-10-2011, 10:40
Green/black paintwork was also extended to the special services vehicles (date not relevant), the guy you need to talk to for TACR info is Clive Westwood at The Six Appeal Wheel Group.

Please join the forum as more contacts and more members help the group to save the vehicles. http://www.thesixappealwheelgroup.org/

Jenna - what do you mean by Special Service Vehicles ??

Ferny - re the colours are you after TACR2A and TACR 2 info or just 2A ??

TED

Jenna
02-10-2011, 10:59
The mod used the TACR for more duties than just airfield work, Land rover called these Special Service Vehicles as they didn't fall in to the normal use (well as normal as a TACR is!)..... my company used to do specialist conversion work for Land rover on behalf of the MOD but this was in the 90's and post 'TACR' when the vehicles were largely modified 110's and 130's and not true TACR builds so I don't know exactly what the jobs of the earlier ones were.

As a clue though the builds we worked on (that replaced the older SSV's) were bomb squad, radar jamming units and other low volume builds.

Jenna
02-10-2011, 11:08
This was one of ours....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Tsim_Sha_Tsui_-_2008_Summer_Olympics_torch_relay_in_Hong_Kong_-_2008-05-02_10h50m54s_SN207104.jpg

ted angus
02-10-2011, 11:11
Jenna most interesting but are you talking about Land Rovers produced by the Land Rover Special Products division. ??
The TACR 2 & 2A were standard 4x4 2 door and later 4 door Range Rovers when they left Solihull, the conversion to 6x4 for the RAF & RN was by Carmichael. They were the only licensed converters. once Carmichael did the conversion then Gloster Saro, HCB Angus or Carmichael completed the vehicle as a crash tender depending who had the contract at the time. The contract could be awarded as the MoD decided at the time because they held the TACR 2 & 2A design right, whilst Carmichael held the 3rd axle ( both live & trailing) design right. This was equally applicable to both the 6x4 and 6x6 versions produced for civil users. .
TED

Jenna
02-10-2011, 11:22
SVO at the factory contracted out the conversion work for later builds just as they did with TACR. The Land Rover commissioning with TACR as far as I understand (Clive would know exactly) was that the MOD builds were done in two stages first being chassis work and then a second contract for conversion builds.

The builds we worked on were the same with the second tier conversions being handled by companies like Penman (EOD/IEDD/ECM in our case).

ted angus
02-10-2011, 11:27
This was one of ours....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Tsim_Sha_Tsui_-_2008_Summer_Olympics_torch_relay_in_Hong_Kong_-_2008-05-02_10h50m54s_SN207104.jpg

JENNA our posts crossed yes you are talking Land Rover : The TACR 1 was a Land Rover both the very late Series 2A & series 3 were used, But the TACR2 & 2A were Range Rovers..
Were you aware that OUR fire brigade were amongst the first users of 6x6 Range Rovers. They had RTA rescue Tenders built on them for the M1 if I recall correectly one at Studley Rd Luton , one at Kempston and possibly the other at Toddington ??

ted angus
02-10-2011, 11:44
SVO at the factory contracted out the conversion work for later builds just as they did with TACR. The Land Rover commissioning with TACR as far as I understand (Clive would know exactly) was that the MOD builds were done in two stages first being chassis work and then a second contract for conversion builds.

The builds we worked on were the same with the second tier conversions being handled by companies like Penman (EOD/IEDD/ECM in our case).


A similar set-up but I don't think SVO ever did a 3rd axle RR. My understanding was that it was a Carmichael baby from day one and they received chassis conversion approval from LR/RR. Land Rover were not the commisioning agents for TACR2 & 2A MoD bought bare 4x4 Range Rovers , inbitially they were bare 2 door chassis / cowls. then for the 03, 04 and 09 AY version the 4 dorr RR was used.
Carmichael did the 3rd axle under one contract and then the body and fire engineering done as a seperate contract.


Been having a look at my notes there were still a dozen TACR2 & 2A in service mid 2003, a couple were from the late TACR2 batches 03AY& 04 AY, .
re colours there were serveral TACR2 in black green at Gutesloh, but I think 09AY62 at Wittering to be the only TACR 2a in black green. There was once a green and white one at Split, my son was on watch on days , when they came on they found the reserve TACR2 had been stolen, they found it parked next to an RN Seaking and the Navy had painted it to match the Sea KIng !!, then of course was the desert ones some in FS 30279 followed by BS 361 Lt Stone, many in plain BS 285 Nato Green and good old BS 537 signal red. There was a single TACR 2 delivered in flourescent red/orange.
TED

Jenna
02-10-2011, 12:04
The 'TACR' program was wound down before my time at the factory ( I wasn't born until the 70's!) so I'm no expert on the TACR process but its fair to say I know all the vehicles well.. I even used to maintain a prototype :-P

yes we had 4 in all, I briefly knew the Kempston RR 6x6, she was called a 'Rapid Intervention Fire Vehicle' in those days (BTM 82L, started off at Dunstable fire station and sold off in 1987).... sadly she disappeared about 5 years ago thankfully the TNA has a photo of her new outside the old Kempston HQ. Her sister Land Rover (YMJ 597L) has recently been restored. Toddington only had an lp4 as far as I know (but could be wrong).

ted angus
02-10-2011, 13:15
A list I once got from Clive listed BTM 81-84L ?/ I am a military reg Norman Potter but not too much on the civvy staff.
I will try some of my contacts and see who has shots ofr all the Beds ones- then of course there were one maybe more at the airport. Forgot to mention the official title of the 3rd axle on the RR was Carmichael Commando.
TED

canberra
02-10-2011, 13:28
Ted, you mention the RAF and Navy having TACR2s, did the Army Fire Service use them at all?

ferny
02-10-2011, 13:31
Thanks guys was info on TACR 2A mainly.

ted angus
02-10-2011, 13:38
Hi Canberra, No instead they purchased the multi purpouse RB 44( Ford A cab) by Mountain Range & a handful for Hong Kong by Carmichael and used those to supplement/ replace their TACR1s. later they had the Renault/Dodge cabbed RB 44 with a Perren stored pressure unit. These were known as first strike units and were operated By ACC ground crew not DFS etc. They were often to be seen on Deptford downs when the 2nd ech ( Upavon boys) later Tac- fire unit ( now at Lyneham) ( yes I know the airfield is shut but they lodge there) guys were not in attendance.
Currently all 3 services use the RIV & MFV, The RAF bought 5 oddball targeted response vehicles by Angloco on BREMACH chassis to replace the 5 ex TQF Scanias at Colerne, Barkston Wyton Cosford and Woodvale, but since one fell over last year they have been quarantined and are rotting at various MT sections

TED

canberra
02-10-2011, 14:49
Hi Ted, why am I not suprised that one service had to do things differently to the others!

Jenna
02-10-2011, 15:02
A list I once got from Clive listed BTM 81-84L ?
TED

Yes. Ted the fleet were reg'ed as BTM 81L through to BTM 84L.. good your in contact with Clive.

A friend thought 84L was sold on to a car dealers (William Titmas, the only only i can find went bust in 1996) and that's the last I heard of her.

Eddie Bakers book 'Fire Appliances of Eastern England' (2007) is a good source of information on the fleet.

BTM 81L has been restored not so long a go and is doing ok.
BTM 82L has fell off the grid, I think it was sold with 84L to Titmas!
BTM 83L also fell off the grid about 15 years ago no idea of who bought it either.

ted angus
02-10-2011, 15:33
Yes. Ted the fleet were reg'ed as BTM 81L through to BTM 84L.. good your in contact with Clive.

A friend thought 84L was sold on to a car dealers (William Titmas, the only only i can find went bust in 1996) and that's the last I heard of her.

Eddie Bakers book 'Fire Appliances of Eastern England' (2007) is a good source of information on the fleet.

BTM 81L has been restored not so long a go and is doing ok.
BTM 82L has fell off the grid, I think it was sold with 84L to Titmas!
BTM 83L also fell off the grid about 15 years ago no idea of who bought it either.

I must get hold of that, I did some work for him re his airfield book, but he was badly let down at the proof reading stage. He used to drive the Austin Gipsy at Croydon fire station that I now own !! small world .
regards TED

Jenna
02-10-2011, 15:54
lol yes its a small world... you know he also wrote a book called On the Run about his time at Croydon?

Yorkie370
02-10-2011, 18:27
These were known as first strike units and were operated By ACC ground crew not DFS etc. They were often to be seen on Deptford downs when the 2nd ech ( Upavon boys) later Tac- fire unit ( now at Lyneham) ( yes I know the airfield is shut but they lodge there) guys were not in attendance. TED

Ted, if you mean AAC groundcrew, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Army airfields are provided with fire cover by the Army Fire Service.

ted angus
02-10-2011, 19:30
Ted, if you mean AAC groundcrew, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Army airfields are provided with fire cover by the Army Fire Service.

Yorkie, Apologies I didn't make myself clear re acc groundcrew ; the R44 first strike was to cover ACC helo for non airfield use, such as Stanford PTA, Deptford Downs etc. It was not an airfield use vehicle. hence ACC ground crew manned. Basically just a HUGe extinquisher on wheels, before the RB 44 they had a Perren unit on a trailer behind a Landie.
The Army Fire Service was disbanded in 1991 . Army airfields and high risk establishments have since then been manned by civillian DFRMO firefighters. But they do not normally cover peacetime tactical Ops. If such Ops involved hercs etc then the RAF manned Tac fire unit covers with RIVs & MFVs.
TED

Yorkie370
02-10-2011, 19:33
OK, Ted, with you now. Please, as a former Army Air Corps serviceman, could I ask you not to lable us Army Catering Corps (ACC). :)

ted angus
02-10-2011, 20:42
OK, Ted, with you now. Please, as a former Army Air Corps serviceman, could I ask you not to lable us Army Catering Corps (ACC). :)
Why is it not the same ??? *%6$ ; of all the R.E.s I knew they were either cooking ill gotten rations or the books !! Sorry Yorkie slip of the key board . any photos of your days in the AAC ??
TED

Yorkie370
03-10-2011, 00:30
any photos of your days in the AAC ??

Only one, of a very young me surrounded by a possy of nubile nurses, with a Lynx AH9 in the background. I think I posted it in the Ouston thread.

mitrovitchp
03-10-2011, 09:03
Hi all

A few question re the above.

When did they go out of service?

How many in the crew ?

Where they ever painted green/black?

TIA

Jon.

Ferny,

1. The TACR2a's were delivered during 1989, most had been replaced with RIVs by 2001, as Ted mentioned there were still a few around by 2003, mainly reserves.

2. Crew depended on the airfield 'Crash Category', usually 2 or 3 but I believe Brize had 4.

3. Not many TACR2a were painted green/black (poss just 6), I believe they were all 09AY60's reg

Pete

canberra
03-10-2011, 17:10
Not many TACR2as may have been painted green/black, but at least 12 TACR2s at Gutersloh were painted green/black!!

ferny
03-10-2011, 17:56
Thanks for all the info guys.

One more question would the crew have worn the blue civvy pattern kit or were they out of service before it came in?

mitrovitchp
03-10-2011, 19:11
This is a question I asked a while back for a modelling project as I wanted to use some Fire Brigade Model figures with the BW Models TACR2a. The short answer was that the blue suits were apparently introduced around 1998 and were short lived, replaced by the 'gold' suits during the early 2000's. So in answer to you question yes, for a couple of years around 2000 ish. Hope that helps.

Pete

ted angus
03-10-2011, 19:34
Not many TACR2as may have been painted green/black, but at least 12 TACR2s at Gutersloh were painted green/black!!
I saw about 9 all parked near each other when I went the on a mission, I have a couple of shots but they are not easy things to find pictures of. I understand they used to tow a Sankey with all the crews kit ??

TED

ted angus
03-10-2011, 19:35
Ferny,

1. The TACR2a's were delivered during 1989, most had been replaced with RIVs by 2001, as Ted mentioned there were still a few around by 2003, mainly reserves.

2. Crew depended on the airfield 'Crash Category', usually 2 or 3 but I believe Brize had 4.

3. Not many TACR2a were painted green/black (poss just 6), I believe they were all 09AY60's reg

Pete

Pete I have a shot of 09AY62 at Wittering do you have any others in B & G please

TED

canberra
03-10-2011, 19:36
Ted, IIRC on my first deployment which was with TACR1s they towed a trailer. I cant honestly recall the TACR2s towing a trailer.

ferny
03-10-2011, 20:40
This is a question I asked a while back for a modelling project as I wanted to use some Fire Brigade Model figures with the BW Models TACR2a. The short answer was that the blue suits were apparently introduced around 1998 and were short lived, replaced by the 'gold' suits during the early 2000's. So in answer to you question yes, for a couple of years around 2000 ish. Hope that helps.

Pete

Exactly the same reason I m asking, and yes it did help thanks.

ted angus
04-10-2011, 10:47
I have been trying to get these answers from my son he served 1989 to 2005 in the RAF fire service, When the TACR2a came into service they were definately still wearing the green heavy serge jacket and trousers, as I have a pic of him taken when he was on RAFG YTS the week the TACR2a arrived at Laarbruch. He did also say the civvy pattern dark blue was only in use a couple of years it wasn't up to the job and was a criminal waste of money.

JENNA re Commandos in Beds I have had a reply there was a fifth bought after the original 4 . they were very nomadic.
I have lots of makers leaflets on these vehicles. If I can get into the loft and locate them I will start a new thread for Commando mounted airfield vehicles. Here are the Beds 5.RR/Carmichael light 6-wheel rescue vehicle with front-mounted pump, 50-gals
1972 BTM 81L, Toddington/Dunstable/Stopsley, oos 1988, preserved
1972 BTM 82L, Bedford/ Biggleswade, oos 1988
1972 BTM 83L, Biggleswade/Bedford, oos 1988
1972 BTM 84L, Toddington/Luton/Dunstable, oos 1988

1975 KMJ 969N, RT, Toddington/Biggleswade, oos 1990

TED

Jenna
04-10-2011, 20:12
Thanks for that Ted.

was not aware KMJ 969N was ex Beds Fire Service, I remember her from her days at J&K at Toddington services around 10 years ago! I know the guys at J&K well (I occasionally drive car transporters a bit and the yard is next door to J&K) I may be able to get some more info out of them.